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 Post subject: Re: Feeling Guilty
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:52 am
  

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beverleyknowles wrote:
:roll: it took Alan half an hour to stop laughing!

But if you think about it does naivety have freedom? Would not it's freedom lie in it's captivity? For each realization you pay with naivety, once you know it's lost forever! For naivety to exist it must be kept from freedom?!?


well, i do think that everybody is naive about something. and perhaps due to the many possible variables (?) (like, involving each persons experiences), there can be many different approaches to things or, a thing.
and sometimes still, from two different approaches (?) there can be some overlap, or perhaps another window opening, and a sort of a "eureka" moment?
i think that everyone is always learning…i know i got lots to learn.

i guess naivete could be seen as kind of like a box,,,,the box just gets bigger (?)
(ironically (?) i got to thinking about the exploration of space and our perceptions of it as one example)

not exactly sure if that answers your question really, but it is where your question seemed to lead me.



on a side note. when you said alan gettysburg, did you mean allen ginsberg?


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 Post subject: Re: Feeling Guilty
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:21 pm
  

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Yes I did mean allen ginsberg? I'm 5/6 hours behind you so when I post early evening your time it's way past my bed time here.

Cool concept on freedom by the way, an expansional box.

I wasn't really asking a question, more expressing a proposed concept, but perhaps both are of the same thing? no matter how large you extend your box your not free of the box!?!

quote:- Bob Dylan:- Are birds free from the chains of the skyway.



Too much Philosophy for mid week, this kind of think should be reserved for Weekend Bourbon ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Feeling Guilty
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:09 pm
  

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oddly enough now, i was thinking about how naivete relates to curiosity?


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 Post subject: Re: Feeling Guilty
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:45 pm
  

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agnes wrote:
oddly enough now, i was thinking about how naivete relates to curiosity?


Only I think if the seed of curiosity is first planted?

If you don't have you don't get, but if you don't get you can't have.

Should you or shouldn't you look in the box :? you can't go back to not having looked once you have, but then how would you know not to if you shouldn't :? would you smile as you watch naivety fly free or would you crawl in the box and hide :? :shock:

Hemm? perhaps I should print this discussion off and let Javan take in into collage, do you think if we contributed agnes we would get a distinction, or is this 'so deep man' they may need a spade!

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Feeling Guilty
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:48 pm
  

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p.s if I don't get back before the weekend it's as I've two really busy days, if it's after the weekend, Alan got me the bottle of Southern Comfort I've been hinting for for mother day :)


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 Post subject: Re: Feeling Guilty
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:46 pm
  

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beverleyknowles wrote:
agnes wrote:
oddly enough now, i was thinking about how naivete relates to curiosity?


Only I think if the seed of curiosity is first planted?

If you don't have you don't get, but if you don't get you can't have.

Should you or shouldn't you look in the box :? you can't go back to not having looked once you have, but then how would you know not to if you shouldn't :? would you smile as you watch naivety fly free or would you crawl in the box and hide :? :shock:

Hemm? perhaps I should print this discussion off and let Javan take in into collage, do you think if we contributed agnes we would get a distinction, or is this 'so deep man' they may need a spade!

:lol:


i somehow think that humans are naturally curious….but sometimes that curiosity can be systematically squashed. (don't get me started on that one, as it has to do with religion)

you (when i say "you" here, i mean anyone) are naive in that, you don't know…but are curious to know and or understand. i think this can be beneficial. naivete, as a step again along the way?

i was trying to understand the concept of naivete as a paradox, "Would not it's freedom lie in it's captivity?" i don't quite see it as that simple? it is free to wonder, to want to understand (curiosity). another step towards better understanding. instead of something as being confined to a box, perhaps it is more like ones limited knowledge of space. (thus my reference to the exploration of space. space, (as known as) ?, the infinite)

in some cases at least, i do want to look in the box!
but i suppose, everyone has their own approach…and their own interpretations based on their perspective…or perhaps too, their preconceived notions


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 Post subject: Re: Feeling Guilty
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:24 am
  

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Interesting story. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Feeling Guilty
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:54 pm
  

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Thinking more along the lines/circles/infinity of your pondering's agnas you could flip it all around and conclude rather than keeping naivety free within the confines of it's self you could set curiosity free and naivety will follow :)

You don't know until you seek and you can't seek until you know.

(unless you walk face first into a wall full of reality... Oooo! Nasty)


Hi Cheryl, Thanks, I think pondering the concept of freedom has now long since freed it's self from Javan's thinking, yet it's still pruning mine and agnas' trees.


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 Post subject: Re: Feeling Guilty
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:21 pm
  

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(just got back in)

i am not sure i understand what you are saying here?

beverleyknowles wrote:
Thinking more along the lines/circles/infinity of your pondering's agnas you could flip it all around and conclude rather than keeping naivety free within the confines of it's self you could set curiosity free and naivety will follow :)

(responding to part in bold) i didn't see naivete as something isolated, but connected in a process of learning and understanding, along with curiosity.


and what is your meaning here?
beverleyknowles wrote:
You don't know until you seek and you can't seek until you know.

(unless you walk face first into a wall full of reality... Oooo! Nasty)


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 Post subject: Re: Feeling Guilty
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:12 am
  

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agnes wrote:
i am not sure i understand what you are saying here?


:( Sorry, not really trying to say anything, still just thinking allowed, but I was trying to agree with you. :)

I'll see if I can explain my thinking clearer, I do apologize :( , I never think in a straight line, Billy Connolly once said he thinks Side Ways because there's usually a f*%king queue straight ahead, I've been accused and hold my hand up to thinking more like a Celtic knot!?


"Rather than keeping naivety free within the confines of it's self - you could set curiosity free and naivety will follow." =
'Rather than keeping naivety free within the confines of it's self' was referring back to my original concept that naivety (as an entity rather than a state of understanding) does not have a freedom as such, because once it is set free it does not exist ( because once you know you are not and can never be in that understanding naive) , so for naivety to exist it must be kept from freedom.
'You could set curiosity free and naivety will follow' =
Is meant to be agreeing with my understanding of
Quote:
well, i do think that everybody is naive about something. and perhaps due to the many possible variables (?) (like, involving each persons experiences), there can be many different approaches to things or, a thing. and sometimes still, from two different approaches (?) there can be some overlap, or perhaps another window opening, and a sort of a "eureka" moment? i think that everyone is always learning…i know i got lots to learn.
a concept that naivety is a path on which you journey to a eureka moment, if you allow curiosity to be free naivety could also be free to follow, the two going along hand in hand.


" you don't know until you seek and you can't seek until you know" =
Was trying to sum up - You can't let naivety be free until you are curios to seek the answers, but equally (going back to my 'seed' concept ~ [ was listening to this at the time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTj45cTB4U ]) if you are not curios to find the answers because you are unaware you are naive, then how can you seek. ~ kind of a parody on the old turn 'Free your Mind and your Feet will follow.'

[Plant Seeds and watch them grow]

"Unless you walk face first into a wall full of reality... Oooo! Nasty" = (not always, but often)
A sudden realization, heard some one once refer to this as a 'reality bomb'.

hope this is ok and makes a mends :)
Me


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 Post subject: Re: Feeling Guilty
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:56 am
  

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it is okay. i was just wanting to understand your meaning. i probably come across a little flatter than i intend to on here sometimes.

anyhow, this subject has me thinking of a commercial i saw on tv once. don't even know what it was for, i just barely caught it. but went something like…..there was this little kid, and it is probably the kid's mom, so the little one looking at the mom's belly says something like, "so there is a baby in there?" and the mom says in a motherly way, "yes." the kid looks kind of concerned or perturbed (?) says in a low tone, "how'd that happen?"

just made me laugh.


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 Post subject: Re: Feeling Guilty
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:22 pm
  

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agnes wrote:
but went something like…..there was this little kid, and it is probably the kid's mom, so the little one looking at the mom's belly says something like, "so there is a baby in there?" and the mom says in a motherly way, "yes." the kid looks kind of concerned or perturbed (?) says in a low tone, "how'd that happen?"


:lol: yes I think a seed got planted there :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Feeling Guilty
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:36 am
  

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Ok, I am feeling a little guilty and need to confess/justify it in some way, so feel free to read and there for appease or pass by, I don't really want to rock anyone's boat.

Tuesday's I am at Uni late till around 8:30-9:00 and by the time I have driven home it can be as late as 9:30 plus. Alan doesn't cook me anything and by the time I get home it's far to late to start and I need something hot, so I usually end up stopping off a take-a-way.

Last night I pulled up in the side street near the Chinese, the corner is tight so I came round slow and as I came around the corner I saw a man stood on the pavement on his phone standing about in the only parking space. He acknowledged me and moved. But he stayed a little close to my door. I tend to leave my uni bay in the car and just take my purse, but he was still there, so I rummaged around in my bag to make sure everything was there thinking he would just leave. He didn't, so I got out with it, but he was so close to the car I could open the door fully. I looked to him as I got out and he started to ask for help.

He asked if I was busy, and not wanting to get stuck in a conversation not knowing what he was about I said yes. He said he didn't want me to think he was a robber and said he would stand to the front of my car, (it's an estate, so he was stood pretty far away.) He told me he needed to get back to Warrington , about a 40 min / hour trip from Leigh, as he had had an argument with his girlfriend. I said straight I wasn't going to give him a lift but could tell him where the bus station was. He said he knew where the bus station was he just needed £2.80 for the fair. I apologized and said I had no money, he thanked me and jogged down the ally, as I walked to the main road I saw he cross to the petrol station across the way.

Now all the while he was constantly looking at his phone, he seemed desperate, reasonable and non aggressive. But, I'm on my own down a dark ally off the main road late at night with a Man I don't know asking for money I know is no way enough for him to get where he say's he is going, and though Leigh isn't a war Zone it isn't somewhere you would take a risk either. When I left the Chinese I looked around to see if I could spot him and walked to the ally with my key's in my fist with my car key pocking out from my fingers in case.
But as I was turning the corner I saw him pleading with someone in the petrol station.

At this I felt a little guilty, I did have £3.50 enough for my tea, I could have given it to him and warmed up some soup. I spent the night wondering if he made it back home? I felt guilty at not helping. If I think about it I must go out of may way to help random strangers at least once a week, not for the kudos but just because I was there when they needed help. But just because this Man needed help and asked when and were he did, I felt I had to take a step back for my own safety, but I still feel guilty at having to.

Just wanted to say.
Me


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 Post subject: Re: Feeling Guilty
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:59 pm
  

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i understand that it is not always easy to determine a call, and being alone at night somewhere and probably tired too…..


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 Post subject: Re: Feeling Guilty
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:10 pm
  

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Thanks Agnes.


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