I don't own a sword or a gun. Don't hurt, and don't intend to hurt anyone. Have always been against war, hate, and intolerance. My heart is in the right place.

Geez...I think some comic relief, with a point (see the last minute if nothing else), might be needed here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTY8-XPhTzQ

And the best scenes in Religulous (Bill Maher's movie) were, imho, the ones with the Catholic priests, like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LJKigLT_D8

Great stuff, Eileen! I'm sharing that!

Damn sure what I needed!

"AMEN!!!"

i've not seen that movie,,,that clip makes me want to!

It seems to me the religious around the world have been in a concerted all out war against education for some time now. Everyone from Bin Laden to Jerry Falwell to Karl Rove has made a point of the dangers of secular humanism corrupting the children by penetrating into our classrooms and disrupting the traditional family (whatever that means).

Religulous is a great movie.

Are you sure about that or is that a position you take when someone questions these notions? It seems to me that attacks on Christianity or any sprititual beliefs will hurt, are intolerant and given enough repetitions become hateful.

Most of the time in discussions such as these eventually people say something to the effect that it is not spirituality that they contest, but some doctrine where the spiritual is conflated with the political. As one speaker said about conservatism, confusing political conservatism with spiritual conservatism, objectives of wealth and power with objectives of consciousness of God and morality.

Heralclitus questions the need for spiritual objectives. He has that right and where he lives within the constraints of civil law, I've no objection. Others seek something more and even if this is considered irrational by some majority of scientists, where it does not violate constraints of civil law, it is not objectionable given one can and does not confuse political and spiritual goals. Separation of church and state in American law and tradition is clear in this matter.

Some questions: is the Guthrie Center a spiritual institution or a political institution or both and how would one know the difference? For some, it is a place to watch performers and hear good music. Certainly Ellis Paul has a deep spiritual conviction in his music. For some it is a place to meet Arlo and when Arlo stopped the meet and greets, they got upset. Is that spiritual, political or just something they feel they are privileged to and feel deprived without? Is it morally correct? To demand it or deny it? Is it required?

Arlo will have his answers to that, but I'm not asking him. He does a lot for a lot of people in a lot of places. I mean no disrespect here. I am asking about what is common in such a place, what is the basis for the community and if the Guthrie family withdrew, would it still continue and in what form? Can it really be a 'bring your own dog church' and that be anything more than a slightly tasteless joke? Or is it only important that people come in communion of some form?

My hope is that the community is bigger than Arlo. I love that man for all the music, the humor, and the occasional lesson here and there, but a community is not about a man or a doctrine in my opinion. What then draws us together?

Love? Is that enough?

Can you explain this statement? I don't think I have said anything about spiritual objectives.

And you never answered the question about whether chrisitans require some begging of salvation or saving event in the name of christ to to enter paradise? Can Muslims and atheists can go to heaven?

I find it funny that you think I'm attacking Christianity. I am not. I feel that some Christians (not most) are not following the teachings. I personally do not like the way Heraclitis groups all religions together and calls them bad. Religions are not religious leaders. They are the people. Most of the people are good. I hate to see religion used as a political tool.

And yes, I am sure of my position. It has been tested more than once.

Not sure I understand your question about the GC. I see it as a good place, where anyone is welcome, where music is a large part of the focus, that I support.

I do think it is Arlo that brought us together. I have found this to be the tightest internet community that I have belonged to. People tend to be sincere, and say what they believe. Would it survive without Arlo? I'd prefer not to find out.

I think that love can be enough, and if it's not, I think it's the best place to start.

I don't think I said this either. I have said flat out I could care less about religion or religious beliefs if the religions would stop killing people and starting wars. I also don't like the way religions judge people and the intolerances they seem to relish in. I don't like the jealous god concept and I think it is an extremely divisive evil concept. Those are specific attributes about religions I don't like. Again, I could care less if you pray to ants and eat beetle dung as long as you don't hurt anybody else by doing it. Religions are defined by their leaders. I am tired of hearing religious people make excuses of why intolerance and hatred does not apply to them. If they don't want to hear it, then they can change what religion and god means.....right now it means death destruction and intolerance...that pretty much sums up god.

Then explain to me what spirit is and what objectives one might call, spiritual?

And to anwer those questions: I don't know. As I said, faith is what you will act on when you don't know.

I agree. The question is posed so perhaps we can talk about what a church is about: common union, in my opinion. Would it survive without, Arlo? So far this year, apparently, yes. It will also change without, Arlo, in ways it might not or might with him. That is good insofar as it changes in a way that keeps that common union.

The name on the sign, is The Guthrie Center. It was the home of Ray and Alice Brock. As far as this time goes, it has an origin in all of that. So as far as Arlo goes, and again, in my opinion, as the twig is bent, so grows the tree. It's a gift from a gifted root.

Insofar as I am given to judge, a leader that sanctions murder, intolerance, violence, bigotry sanctions evil. A leader is judged by acts.

But without a concept of spirit, how does one figure good or evil?

Wars can be and are started for many reasons, religious intolerance being one. But I can't think of one that doesn't start without an evil act.

For Voldemort ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT5ffgWySrM