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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:45 am
  

BlunderVirgin

Joined: Jul 21, 2009
Posts: 5
That's my bone of contention is as well.

I just know someone out there has killed the thing that is killing us all...the big C....naturally. The moment this person decided to tell us all, Big Pharma said "Oh NO you don't!! If you do that, no one will buy our million dollar meds and I won't be able to buy my kid the G.I. Joe with the kung fu grip for Christmas." So a million more of us are going to die or die trying to get better, but hey...as long as THEIR kids are cared for....no biggie.

Me? I can't afford health insurance and no I'm not on medicade and yes..I might be pregnant and yes I could have to put my house on the market to afford prenatal care. Nice!

I have always felt that we were given everything we needed to survive here. Now that there is only a quarter of it left...people have been forced to try to "recreate" it all in a petri dish out of who knows what...something someone else created in a petri dish.

Okay...the blunderthoughts are taking over here......So Scientist Johnny Fever discovered the seed of an extinct plant in some perfectly preserved remains and shouts "We don't have to use that "recreated" stuff anymore...we have the real thing now! Sure it will take some time to repopulate it, but there will be enough for all of us."

How do we keep that out of Monsanto's hands?

I admit to not being the sharpest tool in the shed and that I don't really understand politics very well, but some things do stick. I want to be allowed to do things as naturally as I like. Natural would cost the .gov less, but yet when they take the corn syrup out and put sugar in, they charge you more to do that. Want it totally sugar-free? Sure but we have to charge you TWICE as much to not put it in in the first place? What the heck??

Why is the amount of ill people quadrupling ?? Will my child have autism or ADD or ADHD because I ate twinkies growing up instead of apples? Is anyone looking?

Alright...I'm sorry... all this has nothing to do with the price of tea in china or what you all are discussing, but the mention of Holistics really sent me into a coffee induced blathering blunderite babble.

Thank you for allowing me the place to say it. Wishing everyone a peacful sunrise this morning.[/quote]


Oh dont you know that they have cure for alot!!!!they just aint tellin because the pharmas would go under,another reason they dont want us using herbs and natural medications.the rich get richer the poor get poorer-thats the way its always gonna be,sadly.
wait till they figure out coffe has so many antioxidants they will ban that too
i dont know what people are gonna do man,i mean they tell you to go get checked for free for this and that-then when you have something they basicly send you home to check out.there is no excuse for someone having C and not being able to get proper care as some big old cheese in washington.
the world is a beautiful place,but in some areas its as ugly as the backside of a mule.

EVERYONE DESERVES THE GIJOE WITH THE KUNG FOO GRIP.
PEACE BE WITH YA.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:01 am
  

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The Folkslinger

Joined: Nov 23, 1999
Posts: 858
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Location: Housatonic, MA
To EPR

Yeah what you're saying makes sense although it doesn't address my concerns. That is that with or without bail outs, the plain truth is that there are people regulating the money supply - folks who can change the value of your money should they decide to do that. For the last 100 years (aprox) with the founding of central banking and later with the Federal Reserve System, your dollar has lost almost all of its value. A dollar now buys about 4 cents worth of 1913 stuff. People call it inflation, that's the means by which you lose the value for your work. With bail outs, they inflate (on purpose) the amount of dollars available, pay some bankers, and supposedly they start loaning money again and we all go back to work. It may be true, but now your dollar buys you even less. If the bankers had to keep their money in dollars it might help, but they don't because they're smarter than we are. They trade their more worthless dollars in for stuff that doesn't lose its value. So now they've gained not only the dollars we gave them, but the difference in value as well. That's why it's not the bail out that's the problem I have, but the value of the dollars we're left with. If they bailed the banks out with real money (real meaning gold or something), the banks would not profit from the bail outs, as they'd be expected to pay it back the same way they got it (in gold or whatever). These guys and their families have already stolen 96 cents from every dollar you have!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:16 am
  

Senior ArloNetizen

Joined: Sep 20, 2007
Posts: 189
Location: Nashua,NH
Well Arlo I can say that I completely agree with you I just wish that somehow we can all just get out of this pickle that we are in and get on with life and feel secure about our jobs and freedom from fear of losing what we have like our homes. I just hope that the next generation is taking note of the current screwup so that they do not make the same mistakes as our generation....But history has a way of repeating itself doesn't it?
-Eric


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:15 am
  

Arlo Fanatic

Joined: Dec 23, 2005
Posts: 1013
Location: here and there
Geez, I'm slow on the draw with stuff, and I'm not politically savvy. But I want to share my thoughts on a couple of the original items brought up.

About the 13 year old boy with cancer. I can see both sides of this issue. I believe, the people in that community are truly concerned for that child's welfare and obviously believe that allopathic medicine is the only way to go.

I've seen plenty of people go through chemotherapy. My understanding is that it not only kills off the cancer, but also destroys the person's body. Everyone I know who has undergone chemotherapy has suffered immeasurably. Most, but not all, did not survive.

I believe that this young man's parents really do care about him. Maybe they have witnessed the suffering of people who have gone through chemotherapy and did not survive. Maybe they didn't want that for their child. I've known people who have used naturopathic medicine and cured their cancer. It cost them lots and lots of money. Most of them have survived, not all, but most.

I don't think this is only about one 13 year old boy. I think this is about our freedom to choose how we live and care for ourselves and our children. Maybe you don't agree with those parents and think the state needed to step in and take over management of what they can and can not do concerning the care of their child.

But think about this, let's just say it's your child. And your community/doctor/whoever decides that your child who is sick with cancer needs to not have the allopathic chemotherapy you think is right, but must have an alternative treatment of high doses of vitamin C. Would you want these other people to make that decision for you? How strongly do you feel about being in control of your own destiny?

Someone I talked to recently was totally shocked that Arlo became a republican. I was shocked too, but then I thought about it and can see how you, Arlo, came to your conclusion. And it might work. I can see how it might work. That has not been my experience with large organizations though. I hope your venture changes the republican party for the better and does not harm you or cause you to loose your own ideals. As I've heard said, nothing ventured, nothing gained.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:51 am
  

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Arlo Fanatic

Joined: Feb 26, 2009
Posts: 1201
Quote:
Everyone I know who has undergone chemotherapy has suffered immeasurably. Most, but not all, did not survive.


To someone who is undergoing it, that's bad news. Some first person reports:

1. Chemo varies in treatment types depending on cancer type and specific issues. The child under discussion has the same cancer I do.

2. Depending on the stage, the treatment might not be as bad as you think. The later it goes, the worse the treatment is. However, the treatment works insofar as what I am receiving. Delays to explore alternatives if available are reasonable but a trade off.

3. It isn't pleasant. You have to ask yourself if that is sufficient reason for the parents or the child to defer treatment if that is the only alternative. If alternatives are withheld that are reasonable, you have cause to resist. Some alternatives are not reasonable. Letting a child die of a treatable condition by claiming prayer and ritual such as faith healing are acceptable alternatives is beyond reason and the State should intervene for the good of a child not at age of emancipation from parental authority.

That is a separate issue from the notion that the state owns you and can compel you to take a certain course of action when in fact there are reasonable alternatives.

I'm familiar with allopathic cures and ayurveda. I agree that the Western physicians don't do enough research into these alternatives, that the machine tends toward high profit cures and that this is part of the reason for high medical costs. It has it's own momentum. The larger issue then is the issue of personal rights over states rights and federal rights.

I'm from the State where we've been villified and scorned for almost fifty years when the Governor stood in a university door and claimed states rights as the defense of "segregation now and forever". As arguments go, this one is a can of worms because one has to stay very focused on the rights at hand or it turns to gray goo fast. There are those such as Jon Taplin preaching the notion of The New Federalism which relaxes Federal control in favor of block grants with increased State discretion over spending. States are increasingly defying Federal regulations on such things as marriage sanctions and distribution of controlled substances for medical applications.

How to extend that type of resistance to notions such as state enforcement of medical prescriptions for treatment is the problem. Examples such as chemo vs herbs are useful but tend toward goo (insufficient background to evaluate examples to determine if they are relevant).


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:08 pm
  

Arlo Fanatic

Joined: Dec 23, 2005
Posts: 1013
Location: here and there
len wrote:
3. It isn't pleasant. You have to ask yourself if that is sufficient reason for the parents or the child to defer treatment if that is the only alternative. If alternatives are withheld that are reasonable, you have cause to resist. Some alternatives are not reasonable. Letting a child die of a treatable condition by claiming prayer and ritual such as faith healing are acceptable alternatives is beyond reason and the State should intervene for the good of a child not at age of emancipation from parental authority.

That is a separate issue from the notion that the state owns you and can compel you to take a certain course of action when in fact there are reasonable alternatives.


Who is to decide what is a reasonable alternative? If we are to be free to choose how we take care of ourselves and our families, then we have to be able to make those choices, even if they look unpalatable to others.

Your choice of treatment may appear to be unreasonable to someone who whole heartedly believes in naturopathic medicine, but it is your choice. You have done the homework and found it to be the most effective way to heal yourself. I would not ever attempt to impose a different choice on you, and I would defend you to the very last for your right to make that choice.

[/quote]The larger issue then is the issue of personal rights over states rights and federal rights.[/quote]

I don't want any government agency to make this sort of decision for me.

[/quote]How to extend that type of resistance to notions such as state enforcement of medical prescriptions for treatment is the problem. Examples such as chemo vs herbs are useful but tend toward goo (insufficient background to evaluate examples to determine if they are relevant).[/quote]

I'm not sure I understand what you saying here, but let me take a guess.
Are you talking about finding a way to force people to take medications when not in the hospital??
I fully believe that it is up to the individual or parent to make this sort of decision. If the decision is to follow what a doctor at a hospital tells them to do, such as chemotherapy or surgery, that's all fine and well. But I believe that they have a right to choose an alternative. I might not like that choice, and I might try to convince them with facts to change their mind, but it is still not my choice to make.


Last edited by cheryl on Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:12 pm
  

Arlo Fanatic

Joined: Dec 23, 2005
Posts: 1013
Location: here and there
Oh by the way, peanut butter fudge YUM!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:37 pm
  

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Arlo Fanatic

Joined: Feb 26, 2009
Posts: 1201
Quote:
I don't want any government agency to make this sort of decision for me.


Your parents made that choice by having you here. It is individuals subordinate to the laws of the land. The struggle is to get good laws particularly where they are based on cases. That is why a better supreme court is the centerpiece of campaigns and the struggle between states rights and federal perogatives advocates is bitter and eternal.

Quote:
Are you talking about finding a way to force people to take medications when not in the hospital?


Not at all. It is the broader issue of when any government at any level can compel a citizen to any act against the express will of the citizen.

The child next door has juvenile diabetes diagnosed at age 12. The parents say their pastor advises them that it is God's will for the child to have the condition and God's will if the child survives. Prayer is the only acceptable alternative.

Does the State have a right to take the child from the parents and get medical treatment for a condition that will most certainly kill the child quickly?

Yes. Case after case has been decided on this kind of issue. The state can and should compel acts where the life of the child is clearly in danger. Notice, I am only talking about a child being lovingly abused, not an adult seeking alternatives for their own conditions. The sad fact is the quickest way to get the kinds of decision autonomy in these cases is to have no medical insurance. The machine tends toward the high cost solutions whether appropriate or not. The insurance companies keep premiums high to support the expected costs. The expected costs are all figured in terms of the machine's costs. With no alternatives, with high cost penalties for lawsuits and the rising cost of malpractice insurance that leads to more testing given the need for irrefutable documentation in court, all the system CAN do is spiral into bankruptcy.

That's why it is a health crisis not a states vs individual rights crisis.

So the looser case is one that I facetiously but intentionally states. Does the insurance company have the right to suspend my insurance over the peanut butter fudge cookies even though I am fully paid up? Possibly yes. It depends on obscurities of contract law so dark most people can't read them much less interpret them correctly. This is where remedies are needed. The companies have little in the way of regulations to ensure decisions about health care made available is just. That gives them enormous leeway to keep their own losses within their own assessed goals without regard to patient consequences.

That is the sort of thing I want to see the Obamaites address among the many.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:25 pm
  

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Arlo Fanatic

Joined: Jul 06, 2008
Posts: 2531
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Location: Crawfordville, Florida
Just a couple of thoughts I am blundering over as I read this excellent discussion......One thing I've discovered so far: It's very difficult to find a good quote regarding peanutbutter fudge :?


"The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do". - Eric Hoffer

And......

"If one considered life as a simple loan, one would perhaps be less exacting". - Eugene Delacroix


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:57 pm
  

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Arlo Fanatic

Joined: Feb 26, 2009
Posts: 1201
I'm a slave to peanut butter fudge with oatmeal. Insurance be dammed. I'll take the insulin and walk off the fat. Life is too unsweet to be without the occasional orgy of peanut butter fudge and sassafrass tea.

So there. :twisted:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:06 pm
  

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Arlo Fanatic

Joined: Feb 26, 2009
Posts: 1201
Quote:
adg sez to epr: the plain truth is that there are people regulating the money supply - folks who can change the value of your money should they decide to do that


And they scare me right down to my socks. The Russians are getting very brazen with their wet work. Another journalist was found dead. The rise of terrorism is scary but the rise of gangster states with nukes chills me in old dark places.

Anyone can make noise but start to dig deep, it gets cold fast. The evil is intimidation works.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:29 pm
  

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Arlo Fanatic

Joined: Jul 06, 2008
Posts: 2531
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Location: Crawfordville, Florida
Kevin wrote:

"One thing I've discovered so far: It's very difficult to find a good quote regarding peanutbutter fudge"


Not anymore......Len's quote is perfect:


"I'm a slave to peanut butter fudge with oatmeal. Insurance be dammed. I'll take the insulin and walk off the fat. Life is too unsweet to be without the occasional orgy of peanut butter fudge and sassafrass tea.

So there"

Added to book of aphorisms under "Sweet Things", "Life's Too Short..."
and "Torpedos Be Damned" :D


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:02 pm
  

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Arlo Fanatic

Joined: Jul 06, 2008
Posts: 2531
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Location: Crawfordville, Florida
Oh yeah, about what Arlo wrote about the devaluation of our money,definately a major problem.........
I wanted to add an enlightening perspective from an old man of Woody's generation: I was complaining to him that a loaf of bread had just cost me 3 dollars and change, and that I had read that during the worst of the Great Depression a loaf cost only a nickel. He told me that what the difference is and what I was failing to comprehend was that even at 3 dollars a loaf today, I have the 3 dollars. Back when it was "only" a nickel, lots and lots of folks didn't have and couldn't find a nickel.......!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:00 am
  

Senior ArloNetizen

Joined: Jul 30, 2008
Posts: 374
Location: Washington, DC
Arlo, thanks for the clarification; sorry if I was being dense. Kauffman's site is very interesting (and I saw he just posted yesterday on Burgermeister).

Cheryl/Len, I just want to say what an interesting and thoughtful exchange you are having. I agree with both of you -- never have been able to make my mind up about what I think about government response in cases like that -- I wish we could figure out a better way of dealing with issues like that, without hurting families, scaring kids, etc. I don't know what it is.

Quotes...nice quote from Len...are any of you Buffy/Angel fans? Two of the greatest works of art America has produced? If no, ignore me (or go watch it, whichever you will)...but there's an episode in which Angel (vampire with a soul, striving for redemption) becomes human for a day (until he reverts in order to save the world, which he can only do if he's a vampire)...after 400 years of being a vampire with no sense of taste or smell...and we get:

Buffy yells: "Peanut butter, preferably crunchy!"
Angel's head pops up above the door of the fridge: "I got it."
His arms piled with food he makes his way back to the bedroom with some strategically placed props all that's preserving his dignity.
He dumps the stuff on the bed and slips under the sheet.
Buffy wearing a black robe smiles at him: "The perfect yum. (Angel feeds her a spoon of ice cream) Mmm, this is a dream. You're human for like a minute and already there is Cookie-dough-fudge-mint-chip in the fridge."
Angel: "God, I love food."
Buffy feeds him some ice cream on a chocolate waffle: "Food is good."
They kiss.
Angel: "Why didn't you ever tell me about chocolate and peanut butter?"


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:29 am
  

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Arlo Fanatic

Joined: Feb 26, 2009
Posts: 1201
I'm a Joss Whedon fan. I admit it. I worked backwards from Firefly to Buffy and Angel but only after syndication. During the Bush years, I couldn't watch morning news without screaming at the TV, so I started watching Buffy reruns at six AM. Got hooked. Great ensemble. Have you checked out Felicia Day's "The Guild" webisodes?

Big thread bifurcation here...

Inflation is bad but the door that opened in the recent financial meltdowns drained almost 60% or a lot of retirement accounts. Who went to jail for that? Bernie Madoff and only because he skimmed the wrong people for the wrong people. If Jon Taplin is right and beneath the surface of his case is money laundering through the Russians, we aren't seeing 2% of what is going on here. The bailouts aren't just financing recovery; they are hiding criminal conspiracies on scales we aren't willing to admit exist.

It's a bit like Angel and Buffy in that regard: cities full of frikkin demons that no one admits exist in the daylight and they own the night. I often think our TV and movie trends reflect what is going on beneath the surface of our society, our fears unheeded, and when you look at the rise in vampire flicks and other sordid plots, there is a lot of unheeded fear out there combined with a lot of unanswered passions, and that can be very bad juju.

Too nice a morning for this darkness. My son's band is coming to record in a few hours and I've got to get ready for a day with metalcore drums and bass in the headsets. Ouch!!!


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