"Seven Arrows" has an honored place on my bookshelves. And I'm happy to learn from John Flynn when I can (he'll be at WoodyFest--yippee!). Most of all, I am happy that once again we have established that we all agree in our disagreement. Or disagree in our agreement. Would that the world could do so. But we do our part and I'm glad for that.

Hey what about this candidate who may yet be the Unity 08 Man:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuYecy71 ... =842671464
?

I don't believe mine is the only way. I have said here a number of times i spent most of my life trying to be accomodating of religious people, treating them with respect and quietly accepting the "expected social rituals" of prayer etc.. but, I am tired of it. Religious intolerance and beliefs are a primary source of instability in the world! done. and it is like cleaning up a river, you have to do it one step at a time. Now, if those who are religious wish to dissipate their intolerances and differences I will return to accomodating them. But until there are some real changes in these people, I will be vocal in saying, religion is an evil influence in the world and should, in an evolutionary since, become extinct! I am not going to kill anybody or intimidate anybody I am just going to say...you need to control the effects of your superstitions and that includes secular hatred, racial hatred, nationalist hatred and gender hatred and all those other things that the belief in Gods spawns.

I don't like to hear that it is only the bad Christians or the bad Muslims or the bad Jews, I can't make a distinction.

Sailing up, Sailing down, Sailing up down, down up, up and down the river

Actually, I think now it was from the dali lama that John was quoting.

just who is this Deli Lama that I keep hearin' about? Can he make a pastrami sammich as good as I get at Katz'?? (now THERE'S a religious experience!!!)

PSB, of anyone here, I know you don't believe yours is the only way. I don't have a single religion or a god unless you count the interconnectedness of everything that IS, but I'm fascinated by how so many cultures have created both god(s) and a religion. There is a good-sized kernel of sameness in all that intricate fabrication, and one thing that seems always to be there is the division between "us" and "them"; believers and non-believers. Even in the generally commendable native American belief systems, the creation story usually has that group being "more human" than others. It seems to be hard-wired in us, though I hope not. I hope we can someday pick apart the differences and weave it all back together into that beautiful rainbow roach blanket. If we do, it more likely will be in Captain Janeway's time than in mine.

May I please have an extra pickle with that sammich? (Where's the "yum" emoticon when you need it?)

So....how about this Obama guy?

I think he 'don't want a pickle'

(But he does want your support)

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law)

I would imagine that something along the same lines could be said about religions with creation myths, a way of explaining something (well, not really!) that cannot be explained.

It's interesting that a lot belief systems other than the "big three" consider their myths to be what they are ...... myths or stories that are more analogies and morality plays. It's also interesting that the Celts are among the few who don't have a creation myth.

I'm with PS on the weary wagon. Quite frankly, I'm tired of the zealots spouting that they have "The Answer" when they, along with everyone else, don't know jack s**t!!!!!

It's the symphony that is so amazing to sing with and be part of...

there's an fun thing to do.... take a group of 3 or more folks... have them imagine a sound.... and on the count of 3 ( or whatever).... everyone hummmm it.... and hold that sound.....

there's only ever one result.... harmony...
i can't explain it... don't want to try... just love it...

if there is disharmony, it is only because someone bends their note ... we are vulnerable...

I guess this is the origin of the phrase my daughter has posted on her refrigerator

"Science is what happens when you explain Magic"

Back to President Obama (I get to vote soon you know),

I think I have made no bones about my concerns with Obama are mainly around his canned rhetoric and his campaign is based on his “charisma factor” and all that. The rhetoric has become more and more canned. And speaking of Us and Them, he is dividing lines such that he sounds like a bulldog that is going to tear into corporate America. “I don’t take money from them and I will take money away from them etc etc.” of course Hillary is still in a response mode and she is going to take the oil companies and force them to funnel their profits this way and that. The interesting twist to Hillary is that the grass routes phone calls are directed at the woman of the house (I have had a few of these) where I answer and they ask for the woman of the house and I say I am on my own and then they say well I am from the Hillary (blah blah blah).

So, I think idealistically they are very similar candidates.
I think Obama is inherently more electable in November baring any foolish misstep on his part (which Hillary seems more prone to). I actually would feel comfortable about voting for either of them in November (not necessarily always the case with those I have voted for). I believe either candidate will begin the process of leaving Iraq (thank God, oh wait I don’t .. never mind). The economics of the world are going to suck for a while as we pay all the debt to China for the money we gave to Haliburton et al. And we are going to begin investing in nuclear power again because any advances in alternative biofuels have become an agronomics subsidy (with concomitant increases in petrochemical output to raise corn for biofuel) instead of developing low petrochemical-requiring alternative systems based on low lignin grass systems and by product conversion systems that look at hydrogen and (its carbon analogue) carbon monoxide as well as ethanol and bio-diesel as fuels. And we will continue to be dependent on coal and we have to deal with the energy system bitching and moaning about having to invest in capital to make it a clean(er) technology. Plus we have the dreaded financial and insurance markets (or arrogant pricks in suits …sorry everybody has there own way) and the group of CEO’s that ought to be sharing cells with the Haliburton boys. (and yes it does piss me off when I hear talk of bailing out the consumers who bought more house than they should have on credit that they knew they could not afford and (to be clear) I am not a Republican (oh ya, those are the guys that get bailed out for loaning the money with out collateral and coming up with clever ways to package the debt)). Oh, and don’t forget the schools without curriculum in “Urban” neighborhoods without jobs (and yet I believe a globalization of the economy will have long term stability benefits, now how conflicted is that).

Now I try to sort all that crap out relative to the rhetoric I hear in the campaign? Now here is the funny part, I agree with Leo that all these corporations and things are actually owned by America, the public (it’s our jobs that create the products that we pay for with the money we earn to create the products). And I would like to have a say in how profits are used (even if I am not a share holder). And when it comes to energy and communications and globalization, I would like to be involved in setting long term goals (not necessarily take profits from the corporation but driving the goals that they need to achieve like, I don’t know, say cleaning up the energy industry by this date (you get to keep the money, now go do it).

To make a long rant short..

It still seems Hillary is less bombastic in rhetoric and more pragmatic in progressing forward (I have already said in ideology they both are very similar, that can not be denied). She is the master of the Faux Pas though!

I wonder who I will vote for, it is like ordering dinner I probably won’t know for sure until the time comes to express myself!

I have to tell you how wonderful it is for me to hang out with a group of such intelligent people as yourselves.

PSB, I'm with you on Obama and Hils.

On organized religion, well, I believe it started as a way to keep the masses under control i.e. with fear (fire and brimstone) and in some cases to amass wealth (you know which ones I'm talking about). Also for the individual I see it as a crutch to help them thru life (you know, instead of drugs or drink etc)which I guess is a good thing. But each to their own, just don't come knocking at my door preaching to me. And I'm happy to disscus people's beliefs with them but I do get a little heated when it comes to things like men being superior or homosexuality being an evil sin (while kids in small towns are murdered or comit suicide) etc. etc.

It's only 5:15 AM Sat morn here so I'm going back to bed for a cup of Earl Grey and to watch the sun come up.

(I really just logged on at this time to try to get a word in on BlunderJeopardy)

Does it strike you at all the being "accomodating of religious people" could be thought of as hypocritical? Religous people have the same rights to their beliefes as anyone else. Being a believer in God, or Christ, a scientist or an athiest does not make a person crazy, or anything bad. Why would anyone think that Christians lead the market in superstitions including secular hatred, racial hatred, nationalist hatred and gender hatred and all those other things? It's true of some Christians, as well as some athiests.
The "religous people" of the world are in the majority and have a right to their views the same as anyone else.

I'm a Christian. I believe that God created the earth and everything in it. I do not hate any person of another race, nationality, gender (the 2 top replubicans are another story) . I plan to vote for Obahma because he may be young enough to have the right experience but not be as tight with the big business or special interest groups. Clinton may be more experienced, but a lot of her experience is "business as usual" in Washington. McCain? Too scary. Too old. He advertises his having been a POW during Viet Nam as a good thing-I'm thinking, flashbacks. He does not need to be near the red phone at 3:00AM or the button!

p.s. Can you make a distinction between good and bad athiests? I'm glad you're not going to kill anyone.

I heard on CNN in March that Tom Jefferson thought all churches would be U.U.'s by 1850. With only 200,000 UU's in America today, when probably 80% believe in the UU principals, seems like part of a problem to me.