Well, I think they're cute, too, Agnes.

I have been reading through this thread and following along and I decided that it is time for me to insert a few more lines. I strongly detest violence but yet every day all we see and hear is violence. We see it in the news and we read about it in the newspaper. It’s in our video games and it’s in our music. We see it in sports, just look and see the violence over in Europe after a football (soccer to us Americans) game. Violence it seems to me has become an acceptable way of life. But is this why we have war? Maybe it is a part of it.
Look at what is going on in politics in this country (America). If you want to hear hate just listen to the extreme right wing of our political spectrum. I don’t know about anybody else but a lot of what I hear from the right wing extremist news station(s) sounds a lot like a return of McCarthyism to me. How many times have you heard the right call the left commies? Hate is a catalyst to war and food for evil. Until we can rid this world of hate we will always have violence and wars.
Read the book “Lord of the flies” if you haven’t already. It says a lot about human nature..

The causes of war are many and we are well practiced and have evolved many persistent institutions that support it. In our genes? No proof I've seen for that offered so far.

But step back for a minute, EPR, and look at what you wrote:



That is just as true of the left. The Coffee Party founded to 'incite civility' broke down into yowling and cat calling within a month of the founding. Worse, where the Tea Party may be scary they are an effective political group. It can't be said for the coffee party so far. Last week some of them were praising the WikiLeaks folks and said if American soldiers were killed, well that was a good thing because if there are no soldiers there will be no wars and the Afghans would live peacefully. The blithe witlessness of that stuns me and reminds me of the stories of soldiers being spit on coming home from VietNam.

In other words, Spy Vs Spy. Changes in behaviors can be achieved but in the microscales through the local groups like the GC who decide "bring your own God and we'll feed ya and play good music" and at the macroscales through reforms of institutions such as international banking, through gestures such as Buffet's lining up the wealthy and getting them to commit to leaving half to charity. Not by demonizing.

It really is the saying from Jesus: 'the moat in your own eye'. It really is "if you want to change the world start with yourself". The changes are easy to understand but hard to do. But proof after proof is given that the fault is not in our stars or in our genes: we have to want it, we have to believe it, we have to try and if we fall, we get up and try again. As I've said before, even though I may not be one of the insiders or belong, I admire Arlo principally because he picked a path and stayed on it. Not a saint, not the sinner, just a guy, the kid who looked around and chose and hoed. As long as I can point to folk like that, I know we're going to be ok.

Propaganda is what I call it. It's a shame.

I could see Arlo doing a song about possums...

I remember him doing a kind of "Goundhog's Lament" a while back.......

Oh yeah, the Groundhog Song...

thank you for your thoughts, EPR.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet. I think it is, unfortunately, inherent in our nature to be dangerous animals, as are many animals. The wonderful thing is that we can think through our dangerous nature and make a choice of what we will do. It's not easy, and it's not always fair, but we are able to make the choice to not fight, or kill, or go to war.

Len, regarding hate talk, the left has nothing to compare to Glen Beck, Ann Coulter, or Rush Limbaugh. Nothing to compare to Sharron Angle, the ubiquitous Sarah Palin, or Dick Army. I could go on and on with names of those who spew hate from that end. They hate people of color, they hate gays, they hate Muslims, they they hate anyone who is different or thinks differently from them. I can't see anything remotely close to that on the left. I try to stay current and objective, but if I've missed something or someone, please tell me what/who it is so I can learn about them.

I have to say that the squabbling in the Coffee Party hardly compares. Particularly as, at least in our local Coffee Party groups, the trouble was started by right-wingers on the discussion boards, which are open to anyone. The people who showed up at meetings weren't like that at all. And so far the national party seems to be doing a good job of calm, organized, democratically determined political action.

Are you possibly hearing an imbalance of reporting/personal opinion down there in Alabama? I know it can happen here, too.

[An aside: not all (and I contend, not most) 60s anti-war protesters were anti-soldier. The 'infiltration' of the Coffee Party reminded me a lot of the government infiltrators in our local peace committee and SDS in the late 60s. They were the ones urging hatred against soldiers, violence, etc. They were easily recognizable as plants (both by their prediliction to violence and because the idiots sent Northerners to Texas well before folks from the north started moving here). They did not prevail, though I guess they did where they fit in more readily than they did with us hicks (hippie hicks? hickeys?). We told them to take a hike and stuck to peace marches and vigils and organizations like the Movement for a Democratic Military, which welcomed soldiers back, tried to get them more rights within the military, and tried to help them integrate back into civilian culture.]

The bit about Manning being a hero where some said soldiers should die got my attention, C. Regardless of motives and context, he committed de jure treason. If he has a good military lawyer, he'll get twenty years. If not, he'll get life. Meanwhile in Afghanistan, the Taliban are showing their compassion by executing tribal elders and women who cooperated with the US.

The Coffee Partiers go just as ballistic when someone goes off message. The difference is someone will be trying to talk them down. CNN is biased enough that a local station refused to run one of their pieces after the fact. Some of the guys on MSNBC are just as willing to shout down and toss insults. It completely depends on the topic as to what biases get shown by which source. CNN is doing a better job now though than they were a few months ago. ABC has abandoned all pretense to journalism.

It isn't tolerance when a side goes ballistic when a provocateur arrives. That is the test. As long as the news presents the panoramic view and let's me choose, I'm satisfied. Political parties are expected to be.. political, so I have to listen to all of them.

For news at night, I watch PBS. MacNeill and Lehrer do a pretty good job. Otherwise, I channel surf. As soon as any go yellow, I hit NEXT.

I do remember the 60s. Prince Crazy (George deMerle) was a friend and classmate of mine in the Seventies. I played at his wedding to Frankie. I didn't know the crazy stuff he told us about the Weathermen was true until recently. After he left here with Frankie, I think he went to Dallas and died there. He was fun. He was crazy. He was schiz.

http://webgod1.deviantart.com/art/Prince-Crazy-675677

I agree with Maul. If we have to ignore the feelings and ill will to be the good guys, a mosque can be built near ground zero . Right next to it, a Confederate war memorial will be built with the battle flag a flapping.

Insensitive? Well, yes. Fair and balanced? Well, yes. Smart and compassionate? Heck no. The times they are de'rangin'.

Since so many people of the three "major" religions seem to forget or selectively chose the teachings of thier prophets, it seems that no one particular religion is the problem, it's religion in general.Choosing up sides and making teams ain't religion, but that's seems to be what it's becoming for too mny folks.
To deny a mosque on the site for the reasons people are citing is un american ,immoral,primative to the point of primal and ignorant.

Some probably are, Larry. Others are saying it's insensitive to the victim's families including the victim's families. Do their feelings count?

In America, it's legal to put a memorial to Hitler next to a synogogue. It's also insensitive. One can put a memorial to the Confederacy next to Ford's Theatre. It's insensitive.

I don't believe I've heard anyone say 'don't build a mosque'. They are saying "not there". At what point does Sufi compassion and understanding kick in?

I'm with Larry on this... nothing wrong with building a mosque 'there'... besides which, it's not ON the site of the WTC, but two blocks away - and there is already standing a christian church and a jewish synagogue in the immediate vicinity

I'm with Larry and Wyld on this too Len, but I get your point. This issue illustrates the distrust and intolerance of many folks, one of the main reasons people have been butchering each other for several millennia........I propose a scaled up version of the Trinity Church to be built upon 'Ground Zero'....a BYOG.......Bring Your Own God(s), and respect everyone else's.......