That about sums up your argument in support of socialism.. Had fun exposing you though..

That's strange, I don't feel exposed. But the main thing is that YOU feel better!
***Note: Please read the thread again. Nowhere did I call for "Socialism." I just believe our government needs to integrate some socialistic elements to its policies in order to counter-balance the unfair, exclusionary and socially unjust circumstances we are currently experiencing as a result of unbridled and sanctioned greedy capitalistic behavior(s). I don't give a crap about how rich people are or want to be. My compassion lies with the poor and needy folks. As long as they are provided opportunities to work for a living wage, or if not, be provided with food, shelter, warmth, education and health care.......then the rich folks can bathe in champagne and feed caviar to their cats for all I care. I'm siding with Jesus on this one.......
Oh yeah, and hold on to your corncob pipe for this - the rich folks can afford to pay for this and never miss a champagne bath!!!
And why, I hear you asking, should they do this? Because it's the right thing to do. I personally believe that's why I was placed here......the ultimate purpose for my existance. What's your purpose, besides cheerleading billionaires and the greedy, manipulative, cheating and exploitive ways most of them got to be that way.

Perhaps. You seem to pick up on a little piece of what I say and run with it.

Life hasn't whipped our asses or we wouldn't be discussing this on the internet. I think those of us who can should help those of us who need it.

Edited cause I screwed up the quote thing...

What part of the "the majority of the debt was generated by wars" is hard for you to get? Ignorance is not bliss!

Let's just ignore that little thing called The Great Depression, shall we?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eih67rlGNhU

(Another credibility lapse, this guy is really full of shit!, bullshit that is!)

F#@*&^g Hell, I just read this bit.Look it up son, America's great advancements in the area of the growth of a middle class came after WWII, After we had incurred a ton of debt putting people to work to fight Hitler and the Empire of Japan. And by the way, after entitlements were enacted.

This guy really has no clue what the hell he is talking about?

So you agree that "socialistic elements" have been added to capitalism? How are "socialistic elements" not socialist? Have I not been saying this throughout this entire thread: capitalism works fine until you introduce socialism into it? I keep seeing everyone keep saying capitalism failed, when you admit above that we are not running a pure capitalistic economy. Thanks for clearing that up.



I have no problem with people working for a decent wage, and if anyone forces them to take a job they don't want, I will be first in line fighting against it. If they really don't like it, start a union and fight for better wages. I am not here though to take money from everyone else to give food, shelter, warmth, education, and health care to people who haven't figured out how to do what their grandparents were able to do under a less socialistic society. None of those things are rights guaranteed under the Constitution; in fact, if they WERE rights, then you would have to violate the rights of others to provide them.



Sorry, I have no appetite for herring, no matter how red it is.



"Afford" has nothing to do with it. I could afford to feed another family but who are you to say I must do that? Also, something for your pipe, I have never seen anyone, rich or otherwise take a champagne bath, but I have seen them get hosed by your precious government.



My purpose in life is to take care of my family, and make the world a better place for those around me; at least that is what I believe my purpose is. I do believe that it is NOT my purpose to force "my purpose" upon others. I understand that just because I think I am doing the right thing, I should not force others to do so. It is their right to do with the fruits of their labor what they wish.

Maybe it is a Jesus thing, but I don't envy my neighbor.

Sorry, but I just quoted what you said, nothing more.



Goofus, I believe the same thing. Where I disagree is when people try to institutionalize it with government. Right job, wrong tool.

Wait.... So war is the path to increasing the middle class? Then we should have middle class everywhere! Ahh, but that isn't so is it? So what did happen after 1946 the increased the middle class for a time? Well you are comparing a government that spent 11-15% of the GDP compared to the 40+% of today (see attached graph).

So while you may be right that the middle class increased after the war, it did so by an increasing economy and keeping spending under control. Even with FDR's new social programs, non-war spending was never above 12%. Today we have an explosion of spending, 40% of which is for entitlements, and a stagnant economy mismanaged by R's and D's for years. The great society put in place entitlements that run fine and dandy until it is time to pay the piper, which we are finding out now.

We gave the American people a taste of socialism with SS, and they wanted more.. They got medicare, and they wanted more, we give them X, and they want more.. Here we are $16+ trillion in debt and they still want more. The socialism you and your believers put into place is dragging us down. We cannot afford it. The middle class you champion is getting eaten alive but it is not the spending, no, it is some evil 1% bogeymen that are the problem. It is like someone going bankrupt and blaming their boss for not paying for their lavish lifestyle.

I did not say war is the way to expand the middle class. I said it has been the most effective way to increase debt. You attributed the rise in the standard of living that we have been apart of in America to unfettered free market capitalism that existed prior to the Great Depression. I called you on it. Now you are back peddling and admitting that the expansion was real but for all the wrong reasons (of course). You are so full of (Bull)shit. Look at the little debt chart you posted Debt increased astronomically to pay for WWII. It came down and leveled off a bit through the 60's. There was a burst in the 70's as we paid for Vietnam and readjusted to a new world where America no longer controlled the oil market. Debt increased dramatically under Reagen and Bush I and shrank briefly during Clinton. Then it sky rocketed under Bush II. Generally through this entire period the Americans increased there power to accumulate wealth and spend more money (I know, I lived through the period. I know what we had (in terms of my own family) in 1900 (when my Grandfather was born in a sod cabin in Oklahoma Territory), 1910, 1920, 1930 (when that same Grandfather with two baby girls lost his job to give the WPA work too do and he hated FDR for that as much as he hated Lincoln for what he did to the old home in Georgia), 1940, 1950, 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000 and 2010 (when one of those baby girls in 1930 is dependent on Social Security and Medicare after busting her ass her whole life without bitching and complaining about paying her fair share). Don't give me a bunch of crap about how I should take responsibility for her costs because she earned what she gets and she deserves the dignity of living the rest of her life without feeling like a burden. (Like I said, Free Market Capitalism does not value human lives appropriately as far as I am concerned).



Look Jafo,face facts, you ain't that brilliant! In fact, I have not heard a novel word come out of your typing. Baiting people and distorting history and such. We live in a real world, not a fantasy world of our own choosing! In the world we live in you got to act in your own best interest and my best interest is not to ensure people like Romney live the good life!

Back peddled? On what? Look at our economy during 1787 to today. Compare that to any country you want. Our standard of living grew EXPONENTIALLY.



Yes, I posted the graph, I read it. I understand the significance of it, apparently you do not.



Of course it did, and it also increased under Clinton. There was never a surplus. Who cares? They were all operating under the same socialist interference. Bush worsened it in many ways, Medicare part D for one. You will not get any argument out of me about that. However, let's not forget who controlled the purse strings during those periods: Democrats. There is equal blame to go around.




Well, this is a bunch of populist goblidy gook, but if I don't reply, agnes will have a coronary. Capitalism only holds value for profit. It is not up to capitalism to assign value to human lives one way or the other. That is what socialism says it tries to do, but it doesn't work, clearly. All the things you and other socialists have been complaining about, you are still complaining about today. You march in the streets over the same 1% you always have. Your system has made this so called 1% more powerful. Instead of survival of the fittest in capitalism, you have survival of the most connected, which the taxpayer in the end pays for. For example, these green companies Obama put our money into via "stimulus" lined the pockets of the "1%" and now they are starting to fail left and right. He paid off his buddies and left us with the tab, not to mention a bunch of unemployed.

http://www.globalwarming.org/2012/01/27 ... this-week/



What facts? You show no facts at all. You my friend as so full of shit you need to wipe your eyes.

Like I said, it is time you stop dreaming. You are the one with the credibility gap. I believe you have been called out on out right bullshit a number of times. Your response is always "you have no facts". It wears thin? You may call what has happened to my family over the last 100 years gobildy gook if you want, it does not change the facts. They had to move off the farm in the 20's (just didn't pay even in that time of prosperity). They had to have vegetable gardens in the 30's to survive (when the dust allowed it). Steady jobs were rare and uncommon until WWII (not because wars are the way to expand the middles class). My parents had jobs and worked hard all their lives (without making a lot of money) and contributed to the Federal Insurance program until they retired. Now you come around spouting all your "let's return to the Free Market bullshit and take away what little these people have accumulated so those rich cats can screw us even more". No real proposals or substance. Just rhetoric about how socialism is destroying us all.

Sorry for the delay, I was just laughing out loud over your response. You off your medication or something? I supply a thousand facts, and you supply "c'mon man" and "bullshit" and some sob story over parents failing to understand how to grow a potato? Hilarious.



So your parents could not farm, the rest of society needs to pay for their failures. The US rises and destroys a good portion of the world leaving itself as the one remaining healthy economy, but war did nothing to help the economy. Ok then...



Well God bless them for working hard, but that doesn't mean they are entitled to something.



I made a proposal, you ignored it (page 8 ). Instead of being a wise-ass like agnes, I will even quote it for you:



Talk about being called out..

It was my great grand parents farm and I didn't say they couldn't or didn't know how to farm, it just became unprofitable at that time, free market economies being what they are and land and resource mismanagement being all the rage! It happened to a lot of people back then in that place....THEY WERE CALLED OKIES (real history major here!). Here you are insulting them on Arlonet of all places?

And again, It is obvious you are not the sharpest tack in the box but THEY PAID FOR THOSE ENTITLEMENTS ALL THEIR LIVES AND NO ARROGANT SCAB CAN CHANGE THAT BY INSULTING THEM!

And the proposal, I thought it was a joke. If you take all that capital and divide it up into a lot of little puddles of savings..YOU LOOSE ANY POWER OF CAPITAL THAT IT SHOULD BE HARNESSING. I am all for reform but throwing it all away on some philosophical Government's Evil experiment seems pretty stupid to me. You are talking about taking the spending and earning power of millions of dollars and dividing up into drivel? Now you preach Free Market but you don't seem to know anything at all about CAPITALISM.

Well if I am insulting them, my apologies, but regardless of the situation, it doesn't warrant throwing away freedom. So your grandparents worked hard, it doesn't ENTITLE them to anything.



Keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true. You can name call all you want, it doesn't change that FACT.



You really have no idea on how capitalism works do you? What do you suppose happens to money that is invested into the free market? IT CREATES jobs! Where does it go when you piss it away into the Social Security "trust fund"? It goes nowhere, creates no jobs (other than those who administer it), in fact, it gets pissed away by the government. If you die before you collect, you can't pass it on to your kids, so you just gave away a portion of your money to the government for absolutely nothing. Even if you factor in every recession and depression, most diverse well managed mutual funds always make more money than parking it in a mattress (i.e. government).

So your bullshit advice is to sink it into a fund that is full of IOU's.. Another Madoff in the making.. By the way, to date, you have answered about 10% of my points.. Not that I was counting like everyone else here is.

Oh and btw, as far as the scab comment.. Raise your hand if you have ever successfully organized a union.. (mines up btw)..