Don't look at me. For starters, I'm a firm believer in democratic socialism as the way to go for government. I'm an even firmer believer in what was said quite well already: "that's the way it is" is just an excuse, imo, and doesn't cut it with me, either. To say "people should look out for themselves" seems a little pointless. I have yet to run into anyone who doesn't look out for themselves the best they know how -- some may do so more ethically, and some may take more responsibility for their own actions than others do; but most of us pretty much do as much as we can with what we've got.

Capitalism and grand larceny aren't synonyms -- at least not in my dictionary. Heartless, souless business doesn't do better than business that realizes it's comprised of, and geared towards, people. How different is your lifestyle going to be -- really -- if your income is a measly 25 million a year, instead of 65 million a year?

Even back in the bad old days of the robber barons, there were those "captains of industry" who didn't totally exploit their workers, and who managed to live quite comfortably without reducing their employees to subhuman status and conditions. I've also heard the standard refrain that goes "to be exploited you have to allow yourself to be exploited," but I also know it to be so much bunk. Rationalizing the unconscionable doesn't therefore justify it.

Businesses don't occur in a vacuum, either. Yes, there are those who have started a business with next to nothing, who have persevered, and have succeeded. There are also plenty of people who have started businesses, persevered, done everything right -- and their businesses never quite got off the ground -- or they were successful for a brief while before losing their shirts. (Come to think of it, there are some entertainers who have made it to the top, and others -- who worked just as hard, if not harder, and who had just as much talent, if not more -- who never even got to be One Hit Wonders.) There are a ton of variables, and some of those are no more than forseeable at best.

Like I say, don't look at me. I even feel strongly about some of this stuff. <img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif" width=15 height=15>

<center><FONT COLOR="#000080">--- Edited 1 times, lastly by muffy on Jan 20, 2002 ---</FONT></center>

Democratic Socialism makes sense to me, too. I even still believe it could happen someday. I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime, though.

Tersallot of differant views, on busniness and economy. I like your attitude, and it's your independant thinking that will get you far in life! Plan your future for yourself. You have so many options today. Take advantage of all you can get, and HANG on to them.

*paraphrasing Pat. You don't walk into a job with 'your eyes wide shut'.!!! (well sometimes ya do, but not a good idea. Even if thought at the time)...<img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/eek.gif" width=15 height=15>
Corportate America rules...If ya can't beat em, join em.....This isn't to say, my sympathy's don't go out, to the unemployed!!!

Being as that hindsight is always 20/20 ... 'Nuff said.

Yeah Pat -- I don't expect Democratic Socialism in this country in my lifetime, either. I'm more than willing to move elsewhere to find it, though.

It seems we have two choices when we see others victimized: (1) blame the victims so as not to be associated with them and become victims ourselves or (2) realize "there but for grace go I" and do what we can to stop the victimization and prevent it in the future.

Ters, you are smart, and in a good position to make plans for yourself and secure your future as best you can. That may have to include enough awareness and/or involvement, by you and a lot of other people, to keep this kind of thing from happening again, and again, and again.

Pat, Muffy, social democrat here. It's the only practical way, IMHO. I just don't have much hope that people will suddenly see what is in their own best interest; the "advertising" is too effective.

Well, there's three of us Social Democrat -Democrat Socialists right here..maybe more. I'm sure Deb would agree, for one. So, that's 4..we just have a couple hundred million to go and we could get there!

<center><FONT COLOR="#000080">--- Edited 1 times, lastly by pat on Jan 21, 2002 ---</FONT></center>

Hey, four-maybe-more is a start. A good start. And you gotta start somewhere, after all.

When I heard GeorgeDubya quoting the I Ching in New Orleans last week, I realized that anything -- and I mean, anything -- <u>must</u> be possible.

Cea, IMO your assesment re: victimization is right on. That's exactly how it plays out.

Count me in, as a Demo socialist, socialist DEmo. I'm the "Gonzo" falange.....

seriously though, if we leave it to the "tax refund for the wealthy, Enron cronies, compassionate conservative, bohemian club members, "awl bidness" mainstream, fatcats" here's what we'll get....., Leave it to Dylan, to paint a vivid picture......

"High water risin' six inches 'bove my head
coffins droppin in the street like baloons, made outta lead
I"m pullin' into Vicksburg, dunno what I'm gonna do.
'Don't reach out for me 'she said 'Can't you see I'm drownin, too'
It's rough, out there, high water, everywhere"
Love & Theft

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pat:

Well, there's three of us Social Democrat -Democrat Socialists right here..maybe more. I'm sure Deb would agree, for one. So, that's 4..we just have a couple hundred million to go and we could get there!

<center><FONT COLOR="#000080">--- Edited 1 times, lastly by pat on Jan 21, 2002 ---</FONT></center><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you'd be right, pat. i haven't had much chance to get here for a bit now, and probably won't for a little bit more, but it's safe to say in this or most any political discussion my response can just be.."yeah, what pat said". <img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif" width=15 height=15>

OK, we've got five. Do I hear six? Hey, we've got five part harmony capabilities already. That's more than enough to start a movement, the way I see it.

OK, since I was quiet for at least a week, there's a couple of things I want to add to this particular fracas.

One is, just because power corrupts (and God knows it does), that's still no reason for those who are in positions of power to say, "Since I have the power it is therefore OK for me to be corrupt." Rather, there is an even greater responsibility to maintain personal, professional, and -- especially -- official integrity. Just for the sake of argument, I'll use Jimmy Carter as an example of a man who, when handed the opportunity, rose above it all somehow and maintained a sense of balance. Instead of allowing himself to be seduced by all that wonderful, glorious power, he builds houses for others -- and does so with his own two hands.

The other thing is: Am I the only one who sees the Arabic/Muslim (pay your money, take your choice) propaganda machine as being just as real a threat (if not a far greater one) as suicidal terrorists? That is one incredibly well oiled, cash-flow heavy, successful, and extremely pernicious propaganda machine they've got there, and they sure aren't afraid to use it. I don't just mean the way it's used in Islamic countries, either. I mean what they're doing here -- especially here. Like say, in colleges and/or among the urban young 'hip' crowd ... Or am I also the only one who noticed that the head guy from the 9/11 atacks seems to have spent his time, and apparently had his connections, in all the main rock-and-roll/pop music circuit towns along the East Coast? Not for nothing, but I really, really don't care to have to get fitted for a burka.

Just a thought or two -- but while we're on the subject of distancing ourselves from victims, hindsight, devil-take-the-hindmost attitudes and that sort of thing I, for one, am getting the strongest feelings of deja vu... Like say, didn't a lot of these same arguments/excuses/actions crop up in Europe throughout the 30's?

OK, OK. Just one more thing? I want to get it straight. I'm supposed to spend all my time at work worrying about my IRA and 401k accounts, while my actual job (not to mention my family) can bloody well stop taking up any of my precious time. I'm not supposed to believe a thing the CEO's tell me, or trust anyone at all -- least of all the company CFO's -- but should pretend to do so all the same because, after all, "this company is like a family" and "we're building this business up together." Besides, it's so terribly uncool to appear to be anything other than a caring-and-concerned, spiritually-and-family oriented, church-going kind of a guy ... but don't let's forget that it's just image, and no one actually believes in any of that stuff.
Do I have it right? Just checking ... <img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/rolleyes.gif" width=15 height=15>

muffy said:


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I'm not supposed to believe a thing the CEO's tell me, or trust anyone at all -- least of all the company CFO's -- but should pretend to do so all the same because, after all, "this company is like a family" and "we're building this business up together."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Very good. You're due for a promotion..you get it. And don't forget..we don't want any negativity. Negativity will get you fired, while a positive attitude will probably only result in your getting downsized, or if you're lucky enough to have worked for a really positive outfit, "rightsized".

Now, to get back to the other burning issue, is anyone interested in collaborating on a "Free the Nouns!" page here on the Group W Home? We could work one up, with examples and stuff if anyone is interested. Hmmm?

<center><FONT COLOR="#000080">--- Edited 1 times, lastly by pat on Jan 21, 2002 ---</FONT></center>

Yah! Free the nouns NOW!

I love words, so a page devoted to them works for me -- especially because it involves so much positivity,looking at things the "right" way, etc. etc. etc. The only ting is, it may take me a bit to catch on. I go into automatic selective obliviosity when it comes to "rightspeak", donchaknow.

And thanks for the promotion. It will make being rightsized feel so much better...

What I want to know is how these Enron and Andersen execs sleep at night? What happened to good old fashioned guilt? I mean, I mean....how do you do something that you KNOW is so monumentally sleazy? And live with yourself? And these politicians who took campaign money. Argh....I am so disillusioned this AM.

On this topic, everything Muffy said, everything Pat said. Anna, I don't "get it," either.

Yes, a word thread!<img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/bounce.gif" width=31 height=31> I'll dig around at work; it won't take long to find some fodder for that. <img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif" width=15 height=15>