I am SO glad I opened this topic... it's exactly what we're working on in my philosophy class.

Having been through a similar (albeit not exact) situation with my mother 17 years ago, I can tell you that Terri died 15 years ago, and as a result of a resuscitative effort she is in this limbo we now are witness to.

Further, those clips are at least 4 years old and were staged. I saw a color photo of her on the news the other day that I'd never seen before and it struck me as being "odd" but I couldn't figure out why. Today it finally hit me... I saw the same picture in full-size on a newsmedia website... it's disgusting when you think about it:

They propped her up in a head-support, did her hair, applied makeup and put her in a nice blouse or dress. If you look closely you can see that she's not "there."

Not only are her parents in extreme denial, they are hallucinating to boot! The other day, her parents claimed that she attempted to talk to them!

What is happening here is that there is a biological being, a cluster of cells, that continues to breathe and pump oxygenated blood to her vital organs (except for her brain which has not been perfused in 15 years). She has brain-stem only.... cortex is gone (some say "liquified"). This biological being is no longer Terri Schiavo. Terri Schiavo's soul (spirit) has been held in limbo by her selfish parents all these years.

Cheryl, I do want to address your feelings about her husband (who will be on Larry King Live tonight).... Michael is a healthy, normal man who loved his wife, obviously enough to try everything he could... years ago. But he is also realistic. I don't think anyone would expect him to be celebate all these years, to live his life like a recluse in the off-chance of some far-out miracle that his dead wife can somehow be "rehabilitated."

My heart goes out to him, probably more than anyone else. He has the right to move on with his life, after all, it was Terri who died, not Michael. Furthermore, Terri was ... get this... starving herself (bulimic) to stay "thin" which is what caused her to be in this horrible situation now. How ironic, how sad.

I truly feel that if they really love Terri they should let her go, to be with God or whatever they believe. I don't think they are doing Terri any good here.

If there is a God and it was his will she is in this state, then it is against his will to keep her alive by artificial means.
She would not feel the pain of starving to death, but if I had a say I would vote to assist her to die peacefully and with dignity as is done in the animal world.
I'm not talkin outa my hat either!
I spent 9 years in aged care, 6 in a Dementia unit.
I have heard people pray that they will not wake up the next day. I have cared for all sorts of people. I've seen people with Dementia who have lost all social skills doing things that they would be horrified to see themselves doing. Make sure you have a living will so you know you will never be held in an undignifed limbo. I believe people should be able to choose to die at the time of their choice, with dignity, because the people I took care of had already lost the skill to even choose how to have their coffee and boy did their families suffer seeing them like that and worse was no longer being recognized by their parent.
Some just didn't bother to visit after a while.
I'm sure her husband knew what she would have wanted and I'm sure she would want him to get on with his life and have some happiness in the time he has left. I know I would. It's on the news now as I'm writing this. It's no one elses business as far as I'm concerned, especially not the govt. or the church!!!!!!!!

So glad to hear her husband cares. I wish her & her family the best thru all this. It's a sad situation...

No, Cheryl, it's not so much sad as it is horrible. It's more terrible than any hell you could imagine. Over a 10-year period, I saw both my parents lose every shred of their minds, their personalities, their 'selves.' Thank goodness they had not only signed a 'Directive to Physicians' (living will) but also a 'Health-Care Power of Attorney,' authorizing us to make medical decisions for them. We did the best we could, but I know, from a lifetime with them, (as Louise saw) that if they could have even spoken an intelligible sentence, they would have begged for release. At first I was contemptuous of families who gave up. After awhile, I saw that for many, it wasn't a lack of love, but it was that heir loved ones were really gone and yet not gone, and they couldn't do what really needed to be done; that broke their hearts and some just couldn't handle it. (Others just truly were assholes who didn't care, but that's another story.) Not long after my parents had died, our old dog got really sick. I wept when we held her as the vet put her down, partly for losing her, but partly because I was not allowed to be so kind to my parents.

And regarding the Schiavos, what about the much-touted sanctity of marriage? If that had been honored all along, instead of the church and the courts trampling on it, he wouldn't now be in the hell of having to fight for her rights. Her body would have given up long ago, and he would be married again.

There has to be a special hell for the politicans who are using that poor family for political ends. And I'm afraid her parents may be in for a rude awakening when they get to the other side and learn what they have done.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ceashel:
Not long after my parents had died, our old dog got really sick. I wept when we held her as the vet put her down, partly for losing her, but partly because I was not allowed to be so kind to my parents.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shelley, I dealt with this too, shortly after my mother's brain-dead body finally died. I often wonder why we are so much kinder to our pets (and criminals) than we are to our own families.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And regarding the Schiavos, what about the much-touted sanctity of marriage? If that had been honored all along, instead of the church and the courts trampling on it, he wouldn't now be in the hell of having to fight for her rights. Her body would have given up long ago, and he would be married again.

There has to be a special hell for the politicans who are using that poor family for political ends. And I'm afraid her parents may be in for a rude awakening when they get to the other side and learn what they have done.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Extremely well-said, as always.

Also, thank you, Louise, for everything that you said. I'm sorry that you had to go throught that time, except that I know it's the real-life experiences that shape the person, like our Grandma's told us.

Don't know??? I don't think starving her to death is the answer. Turning up the morphine drip sounds like a better option.

I'm only 48 (yeah I know a dinasaur) and suffer (rather live with) <img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif" width=15 height=15> multiple health problems.

I have a DNR order that's posted on my fridge. DO NOT Recessatate !!!!!!!!!!

When my Mom passed, (ny state) the family and hospice had NO problem with us using any means to keep me mom comfortable. & if that meant upping her Morphine, then we did so. She hung on as long as she could. (ovarian cancer stage #4). When she couldn't, bear living in agony any longer, my sister (RN)upped her morphine slowly. The last question we asked her was if she wanted more. Sadly the answer was yes, and it took 120mg of Oxycodone to put her in a coma.( Todd would of been proud. What a tolerance me Mom had for narcotics) Then hospice came and gave her a large dose of Morphine.

My mother's worst fear in life was living in pain. She was 79 yrs old when she died. She was a nurse for over 40 yrs. I think she (we) made the right decision???

Sincerely/Rb

First of all I forgot to add the part my heart goes out to Terri & her family for the Govt.(aka's professional fools) turning this into a media frenzy!!!!!

And to Terri who started this topic. How interesting. I can see where any feed-back in this area would help you greatly in what you are doing!

I'll have to talk with my brother and if there's any questions you have the same. He's a shrink )pschiatrist and has a very short, brief invision of what is happening there, as well as any good shrink.

going on my experience. backtrackin me Mom's death. My brother being licenced to practice Psychiatry, isn't licenced to practice general medicine in the states.

So he was stuck with the, I don't wanna even give mother a shot of narcotic, as the US authority's might be asking me, "At what time did you administer the Morphine Mr. Brown"? In Canada the laws are much more leanet....

Know, those are great shared experiences with life & death. Something we all have in common. Good luck with your research Terri.

Rb

New York Times
March 22, 2005
EDITORIAL
A Blow to the Rule of Law

If you are in a "persistent vegetative state" and there is a dispute about whether to keep you alive, your case will probably go no further than state court - unless you are Terri Schiavo. President Bush signed legislation yesterday giving Ms. Schiavo's parents a personal right to sue in federal court. The new law tramples on the principle that this is "a nation of laws, not of men," and it guts the power of the states. When the commotion over this one tragic woman is over, Congress and the president will have done real damage to the founders' careful plan for American democracy.

Ms. Schiavo's case presents heart-wrenching human issues, and difficult legal ones. But the Florida courts, after careful deliberation, ruled that she would not want to be kept alive by artificial means in her current state, and ordered her feeding tube removed. Ms. Schiavo's parents, who wanted the tube to remain, hoped to get the Florida Legislature to intervene, but it did not do so.

That should have settled the matter. But supporters of Ms. Schiavo's parents, particularly members of the religious right, leaned heavily on Congress and the White House to step in. They did so yesterday with the new law, which gives "any parent of Theresa Marie Schiavo" standing to sue in federal court to keep her alive.

This narrow focus is offensive. The founders believed in a nation in which, as Justice Robert Jackson once wrote, we would "submit ourselves to rulers only if under rules." There is no place in such a system for a special law creating rights for only one family. The White House insists that the law will not be a precedent. But that means that the right to bring such claims in federal court is reserved for people with enough political pull to get a law passed that names them in the text.

The Bush administration and the current Congressional leadership like to wax eloquent about states' rights. But they dropped those principles in their rush to stampede over the Florida courts and Legislature. The new law doesn't miss a chance to trample on the state's autonomy and dignity. There are a variety of technical legal doctrines the federal courts use to show deference to state courts, like "abstention" and "exhaustion of remedies." The new law decrees that in Ms. Schiavo's case, these well-established doctrines simply will not apply.

Republicans have traditionally championed respect for the delicate balance the founders created. But in the Schiavo case, and in the battle to stop the Democratic filibusters of judicial nominations, President Bush and his Congressional allies have begun to enunciate a new principle: the rules of government are worth respecting only if they produce the result we want. It may be a formula for short-term political success, but it is no way to preserve and protect a great republic.

We recently went through this with my grandmother. She was ready to go--her body was shutting down. She then refused food and water, accepting only tiny sips or ice chips. Then she started experiencing extreme pain (I was there when this started), so we insisted the nurses call the doctor THEN AND THERE to up her morphine, which they did. However, she still hung on for more than a week in a morphine-induced coma-like state. At least she was not in pain. As someone else said, more compassion is shown to our aged (or not so aged) pets.

If you have not talked to your loved ones about your wishes, do so. A living will is not enough. Make sure everyone close to you knows what you want done, and now. It's a hard subject to bring up and talk about, but it is so important. Do not leave your loved ones wondering what to do if something like this should happen to you.

It is too sad and tragic for the entire family--her husband who has been trying to do the right thing for these long years and Terry's parents and siblings who are blinded to her true condition, and Terry herself who's been in this twilight state for all these years.

Shame on everyone who has used this situation for political gain or to appease the evangelicals. The damage Bush will leave in his wake is just beginning ... and likely will never be able to be fixed. His karmic debt must be huge.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rbrown:
Don't know??? I don't think starving her to death is the answer. Turning up the morphine drip sounds like a better option.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

RB, yes, if morphine were being administered, there'd probably not only not be a question today, but it would have been done oh, probably around 14-1/2 years ago. Simply because no one could have built up a tolerance that would allow a 15 year dependence on such high doses just for palliative care.

Terri's not in pain because the part of her brain that feels/translates pain is gone.

My grandmother died of a "morphine overdose" back when I was 11. My mother-in-law "opted out" of life just 2 years ago... she had NEC (necrotizing enterocolitis)... death to the bowel wall caused by "hardening of the arteries" and opted for the morphine overdose. Took less than a day.

Because Terri is not "hooked up" to anything other than the feeding tube, there is nothing else that can be removed, shut off, etc.

Delusional parents are the theme for the week, I guess. We also have the parents who tesitifed at the baseball steroid hearings & are blaming Major League Baseball for their son's suicide.

I've been too busy to follow this case until the past couple days & I gotta confess that I was suckered by the footage I saw on TV. Shame on everybody who participated in that latest piece of "fake news."

I broke my 2 cardinal rules of life:
1. Don't watch the TV news.
2. If you break rule #1, don't believe what you see & hear.

You did the right thing rbrown.
As I said below, I worked in a Dementia unit for 6 years, 5 years is burnout... I stayed one year too long and did burnout and left aged care for good as I could not take the sadness anymore.(I now grow plants) I have 5 close friends who worked with me there (we were the first team in the Unit when it opened 10 years ago this month) and they are all in new areas of employment. When you work in a hospital people usually get well and go home,in aged care EVERYBODY DIES some quickly, some slowly and painfully and some with a little help from morphine which we all always agreed was a blessing.I cried when I read Shelly's post, I sat with lots of family members like her over the years and felt so helpless.

terri: I spoke with my brother, who's opinion was that the Prez of US, is using this, to steal air-time from the war in Iraq. He also stated that her family (parents) were in serious denial about how far gone thier daughter actually is, and has been. If her family wanted her on Morphine she'd get it. Pain or no pain.

He also asked me where is Dr. Kevorkian when you need him? Using that as a metaphor, about the style in which they are letting this woman die. In Canada, this would never of come to this.

Drs. up meds often, when there's little merit in any type of therapy, or treatment.

That's part of the reason he quit General Medicine. If he wasn't treating a hang nail in the E.R. he was being paged to either administer or witness large amts. of meds, given to terminal patients.

In the Pschiatric field he just retired from, he bonded well with his patients suffering from Mentle Illness. He also got great satisfaction at seeing patients respond to the host of new medications. Canada has meds that aren't even legal in the states yet. some of them, offer great relief for depression, and other mood dissorders.

& THANK-YOU Louise for your vote of confidance. My Mother died with her rosery beads clutched in her hands. She said she saw Jesus? Whom am I to argue. Altho, one of little faith ( me Mom was Catholic ) I conquer the narcotics let her see whatever she wanted...

To me anyone that actually see's Jesus, can see Elvis on a good nite... Having had so much loss in my short lifetime, has led me to trust in 3 people. ME, MYSELF, AND I

Then Gov. Bush signed into Texas legislation in 1999 a law that allowed a Houston hospital to pull the plug on a badly deformed baby last week, contrary to the mother's wishes!
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-abush22mar22,0,747741.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines