<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by todd:

even more angrier than when i compared you
to linda tripp???

if so, DAMN!! you're pissed!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Much more pissed. I said I'd never forgive him. I haven't hardly said that about anyone in my life, so I mean it when I say. And I'm madder now than I was then. However, I'm going off to see Arlo this weekend and will return all mellow and happy and that BP will be down to normal. Actually, i'm probably going to have to give up thinking about politics and world events, right along with salty foods. Yup..just live in a fuzzy, happy little low sodium world, that's the ticket.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Arlo has made more sense to me in my life than just about anyone. I don't know if I'd be here today without that man's wisdom.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well put. He's been such a spiritual influence in my life... <img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif" width=15 height=15>

Pat, knowing what is out there, common knowledge, re: Enron, environmental concerns & the like,, i see Repubs and Demos as, different seating charts on the Titanic poop deck... Nader has highlighted areas where the corporate oligarchy has taken over, to the detrement of all but shareholders..
watch how the "war on terror" unravel, as "W" trys to placate the Saudis.. it's gonna get ugly, before pretty returns, I didn't know of Arlo's support, for Nader, but, it seems only logical....& if Arlo isn't "real" I'd like a hit of what he's puffing!

Bumper, all Nader and Moore can really do the way they're going is split off the left and push the Democrats further to the right, as their support on the left erodes. You're just dead wrong, and so are Nader and Moore, if they think it makes no difference if there are Democrats in office. It just doesn't make enough difference. This movement is not helping in that regard. All through the Reagan/Bush years, and even through the Clinton years it's been Democrats working at local, state and national levels to mitigate some of the damage and have done a lot of good, but it's not exciting or sexy stuff and it doesn't make real big headlines. It just prevents a little of the misery and it's all they've been able to do to get that done. Democrats have not been good at winning the big battles or winning over the hearts and minds of enough of the people. I do get upset with them for that. If Nader and Moore really gave a shit about people, as opposed to just issues, they'd go to Wellstone, Barney Frank, Kennedy and people like that and ask what they could do to help and then just do it even if it didn't get their names in the paper. That would help. That would make a difference, but it would be incremental, because this is a democracy.

Do Nader and Moore think that if they win an national election they're going to be an absolute power? Of course not. They'll still have to deal with the same forces that the Democrats have to deal with and would have only a few short years to turn everything around and make everyone reasonably prosperous at the same time in order to be re-elected all the while fighting fierce and powerful opposition. I don't think so. Nader hasn't ever shown himself to be a big picture guy. Of course they're both already good at doublespeak and refusing repsonsibility for the results of their actions, so maybe they do have potential. I'm sorry. I think anyone who'd divide the side and give power to those most antithetical to what they're supposed to believe in is not worthy of being listened to by anyone.

OK, good points, Pat, Nader/Moore aren'e electable realistically, and yes, local demos do good things, and yet, if no one shines light on the real issues, shifts the paradigm, nothing changes and we're left w/ tweedleedum & tweedlededee irrelevent choices... "should your fossil fuel be tinted green or brown..?"
we need hundreds of Wellstones, hundreds of Moores and no Daeshels and DeLays, whatsoever...

Pat, as always you lay out good arguments, and I agree with you on some stuff. But you let the Dems off the hook way too easy. They're not being "pushed to the right," they've been running that direction for years before the Green thing came along. Do they really expect that they can piss on their base year after year, and we're never going to look to new voices?

Anyway, that's enough. I have no intention of torturing these good blunderites with another round of our Green/Dem debate. I was just joking with you with the AG post below, didn't mean to bring back the whole thing. We've done that up pretty good, don't ya think?

The bottom line is that both sides have valid points. You are correct that we need to work strategically to keep the Dark Side from their short-sighted destructive agendas. At the same time, the flames of true progressive ideals must always burn, so we don't forget who we are, so we don't get bought and paid for like the Darks. For 22 straight years now, the right have had their way. Our day is coming.

Pat all I can say is you put up a good arguement! And you even make sence. Being realistic about things. Influence's in my life come and go. And I'll always spell bad. And 'only' intelligent people can get away with starting a sentence with the word and. Well that's a stickler in 'Finding Forrestor' but the man makes his point to!

I like the part in the movie, when he doesn't get terrible mad at his comrad when lost in public. Agoraphobia isn't any fun. Love that movie. Hope you had a great wk. end!

Nice read guys. Norman always knew....But what??? Knew what you say???...ral

Good to see you Icj!.........<img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif" width=15 height=15>

Well, I finally finished reading Ralph Nader's "Crashing the Party-How to tell the truth and still run for President"

Now Pat, I know you're beyond the point of objectivity on this, but I hope the rest of you will read this book. It is a truly great piece of work.

Nader not only answers his critics, but much more importantly, documents the history of our last quarter century of power politics. He draws from extensive personal experience and facts. You WILL learn much about how things have gotten so fucked up, and about how Washington works. You will gain an understanding about why so many good people have concluded that an alternative course of action is necessary. The book also has many great research facts, useful progressive informations, and resources.

I know many of you here are Dems, and think that we Greens have really fucked everything up. I'm not going to argue any more. I ask only that you be objective enought to read this book before making any more assumptions and accusations. Hey, I READ GORE's BOOK, the least you can do is return the favor!!!!!

I shall read it, Lcj...also apparently, Gore Vidal has an interesting non-fiction book out, now, about "blowback" and, how our "war on terror" was initially, a cover for stabilizing & securing Pakistan, for future pipeline construction, to move Caspian Sea oil, to the port of Karachi....that would explain some of Saudi Royal families' recent petulence...

OK, but does he say how he's going to fix the damage caused by their help in consolidated Republican power.Does he give a timetable? Does he take repsonsibilty for causing pain to people who can't afford to wait til his revolution arrives or does he just say "don't blame us"? When he out and out says that he knows what he's doing is causing things to be worse for individuals who are already in trouble, then maybe I'll read his book. If he's still blaming everyone else and taking no repsonsibilty, then he's just another fundamentalist as far as I'm concerned.

I dunno, but if Nader ever tells lcj to go jump offf the George Washington Bridge, I think we may need to stand by with some nets. <img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif" width=15 height=15> (Tongue firmly in cheek)

Yes Pat, he does address those issues, and many more. Which is why I was hoping you would read it. I could accept your wrath much easier if I knew you at least heard out his complete argument. Like I said, I took the time to read Gore's book even though I think he's a wanker.

Cute, Larry. <img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/angryrazz.gif" width=15 height=15>

OK, I'll try, but it's not like I never heard of Nader before his recent political activities or am going to be real surprised by the gist of his revelations, even if there are particulars I'm not familiar with.

In the meantime, think France. This is exactly how the French left got in the position of having to band together to support Chirac, who's a conservative. They out-pured each other to the point where the second place guy was a Nazi. This has happened before..Germany, in the 30's. The road to hell really is paved with good intentions and I really do believe that Nader would lead us right into hell if we let him.

It's just that, in a book, there's so much more freedom to really lay down the various ideas we've been talking about. With television, and even with papers and mags, you don't really get the whole picture. There isn't time. I don't expect you to come out of it with your mind changed, i know that won't happen. But I think you will find many parts very interesting, and I know I'd be curious to hear you view on some of it. As well as anyone else that gets a chance to read it. Larry????? Put down the Penthouse for a few days and check it out

Touche' lcj! <img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif" width=15 height=15>