Ceashell, (and ADG, EPR etc..)

Ceashell, Did I miss something? Although I can see you have reservations about RP - from what you posted - wasn't most of the contempt that you were sharing - aimed at the current administration and not necessarily RP???

To my mind - I think what you were saying was somewhat misconstrued. But that's just me.

REG

Thanks, yes--all of it was, with just a note that it was also aimed at any future 'leaders' who might be like this bunch. They've darned near turned our entire country into one big train wreck.

That's how I understood your post and exactly why I heartily agreed. I think you stated what so many of us feel.

That's kinda where I'm at, the whole mixed emotions thing, like the old joke about the guy who was laughing and crying at the same time. Somebody walks up to him and asks why he is laughing, and he says " My Mother in-law just drove over a cliff", then they same person asks him why he is crying, and he replies " She was driving my new Caddilac".

[/quote]They've darned near turned our entire country into one big train wreck.[/quote]

And in the case of AMTRAK and it's workers - that is quite literally. (Still no contract by the way. )

wamikec: If I thought Ron Paul's positions were as you noted, I wouldn't be a supporter either. Fortunately, they are not.

adg

Well, I for one would like to see an election process that was more inclusive of debates around issues and less candidate or party focused prior to beginning the electoral process. Maybe then Ron Paul's positions would be subject to fewer disagreements. I think all are fed up with the packaging of candidates and the spinning process to clarify it all for everyone. I admit that most of my concerns about Ron Paul are based on my personal interactions with Libertarians and the tacit comparison of what they say to Ron Paul's web site info. It is just another free market extremist philosophy to me. As I have said, Ron Paul waves a bit more of a Christian banner than those I know personally (who tend to be atheist to agnostic in persuasion). I don't disagree with tax reforms although I am more interested in spending reforms. As Leo will tell you, that military-industrial thing is way out of hand! A free market medical system sounds good but a medical system requires infrastructure that a straight free market medical care system can not support (this includes research and development as well as just basic availability of adequate medical facilities). I also fear a straight forward free market system would tend to over burden those who need it most or can't afford it. Blaming government or those who have tried to implement previous systems that deal with these issues does not, to me, suggest that one has developed a better plan (not aimed at Ron Paul or Hillary or anyone for that matter). However, Ron Paul's Isolationism, both political and economic, and old fashion nationalist approach to the future seems pretty clear based on his web site (although in fairness, most other candidates imply they will strengthen nationalistic interests even though all American Corporations abandoned economic nationalism a century ago and it is a real issue in terms of jobs and poverty levels in places as diverse as Baltimore City and Vietnam).

Or maybe I have misinterpreted these things? the beauty of being on the bench is the freedom to express an opinion without being attacked

El-Libra, is this the quote you had in mind? "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury." This quote was from the French author, Alexis de Tocqueville. who identified the dangers of loose fiscal policy.

Another quote is often attributed to Alexander Fraser Tyler (late 1700s) from his book "The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic".

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.

Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage."

Perhaps we can overcome what Tyler and Tocqueville seem to describe as natural law. Despite periods of weak leadership, maybe we can overcome this train wreck and move on to a more just society that will bear more fruit for all people. The question is how…?

At this time in our history, it would be useful to revisit some of the writings of Thomas Paine and his publication “Common Sense”. Mr. Paine’s critiques of the monarchy seem very relevant today considering the fact that they were written (anonymously) in 1775 and published in 1776... Here’s a link to the text:

http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyameric ... /text.html

Thomas Paine was regarded as "The Father of the American Revolution" for his pamphlet advocating complete independence from royal rule. Perhaps it would be useful to revisit some of our past to recognize some of the patterns that seem to be repeating themselves…

See - that's what I thought!! I speak fluent Ceashell. It's a beautiful thing!!

Really? Texas twang with a New Jersey accent?

I'm sorry, I should have taken the time to look it up before I posted it.

[/quote]El-Libra, is this the quote you had in mind?

About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:
"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government." "A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury." "From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."
"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years" "During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:

1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"

Professor Joseph Olson of Hemline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota , points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000
Presidential election:
Number of States won by: Gore: 19 Bush: 29
Square miles of land won by: Gore: 580,000 Bush: 2,427,000
Population of counties won by: Gore: 127 million Bush: 143 million
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Gore: 13.2 Bush: 2.1
Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great
country. Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."
Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.
If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal invaders called illegal's and they vote, then we can say goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.

I'm new here and I don't know much about politics but I know that many middle-class American workers have become poor due either to our government's interference or our dependance on government to "Fix it." If average, working American familys can't make a decent living (not fancy but at least the basics of shelter, food and medical care) what's the point? Apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom. I've also heard that the majority of American families are only a few pay-checks from bankrupture, and I know this to be true from my own families experience.

I was basing my post on his positions on how he votes in congress:
http://www.ontheissues.org/Ron_Paul.htm

And what he is campaigning on based on his website:
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/borde ... on-reform/

If there is another source to look at I'm interested in seeing it--a lot of people I respect are suppporting him, and I can't, for the life of me, understand why.

I'm looking at the same thing you are: I guess my question is, did you read and understand what he voted for or against? His record looks very clear to me, that his position is, if it's not authorized in the constitution, he votes no. If it is he votes yes (in general terms).

There are also some grey areas where it's not clear why he voted one way or the other. So, I guess I'd be interested in what (let's go thru em) particular position you are having a problem with. We (myself included) may benefit from such a discussion even tho he doesn't appear to be winning the nomination.

adg

I love that quote which Obama used of the Hopi Indians, "We are the ones we have been waiting for."
In the mean time I would say, cities and states could run themselves without much interference from D.C. Except for (Off the top of my head.) Social Security and Medicare, which will need a new source of income.-is socialism un-constitutional? (I'm dreaming of a combination of socialism and capitalism.)

Larry Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject:



That's a Texas twang with a New York Accent! You gatta problem wit that?