thanks... :)

We have no understanding The Middle East Culture. What is our oil doing buried under their sands?

Why are their oil profits buried in European, American and Russian corporations? Perhaps because they have none of their own that meet the requirements of investment and they don't share the wealth equally among their own, somewhat the situation we are finding ourselves in here in the West in that for forty years the wages stayed flat and the profits of an economy that doubled in size went to the new very small class of super wealthy. And this new class is closely tied to the royals in the Middle East. This isn't about religion. It is about money.

Get a clue. The Middle East makes a lot of its own problems and the fact of hereditary royalty based on tribal laws has a part to play. Do they justify that with religion? No. They justify it with famiily affiliations.

@agnes: when I said simple, direct and obvious, I meant that these religions have more than one text, one denomination, one set of authorities and that is simple, direct and obvious to understand.

Uh...hate to tell you...my impression of religion here lately is that it's all about the money...

Get a clue? If you look back on this thread you will find comments about King Makers. The west wanted autocratic states to deal with and not democracies. Remember San Remo and dividing the spoils of war in an Italian villa. And who can forget the British with Shah 1 and the Americans with Shah 2. It is easy to focus on a single greedy group of people when dealing for oil than is is to deal with a consortium. Religion bolsters autocracy. Economics does not bolster autocracy. It seems the times may be changing and we will see some serious changing in the guard over there. The question is, even if they turn to democracy or something less autocratic in places like Syria (who has no oil) and Iraq (who has oil) and what is to be Palestine what will that look like. Of course Saudi Arabia appears to be maintaining Autocracy. Iran (an odd balance of theocracy and democracy) is a conundrum. It looks like if they could throw off the theocracy and get past the west meddling in the region, well, it looks like there are some rational people there (they have been suffering through a Presidential twit but hey, we had GW). But of course, they are separated from much of the rest of the Middle East by religion. Then there is Pakistan and the only thing I can say there is ??????

"Oh Lord, won't you buy me, a........"

"And she's buying a stairway to heaven"

But really, "Money can't buy me Love"

"Hey brother, can you spare a dime?"

For some it is, The leap of logic H tries to make is that it always is and this is the problem. It's the kind of logic that says rape is a problem of women wearing short skirts. Then that is expanded to Israel as the skirt store and the West as the skirt makers.

A historical period and location where that kind of logic reached a zenith of implementation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killing_Fields

Len, God clearly came out on the side of genocide! Not me! He told both Joshua and Soloman, you must kill them all without mercy!

Or is the logic about autocracy and the British, French and American influence in the Middle East what you dispute as logic? Nasser is my fav because when the British refused to sell him weapons he went to the Soviets and they said, sure my boy have we got guns and stuff for you!

I still don't see how that makes me Pol Pot?

also len, you are talking about hurting people?, i (too )have been talking about how religion hurts people
...and for more examples of misogyny (for example...since you mention skirts) ...read the bible! (christianity is the religion i have seen, experienced,,,islam and judaism i have only heard about...thus i only mention christanity and it's primary religious text the christian bible)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_sS_EELWyQ
unfortunately it's ideas are very influential, and pervasive...even if/when they manifest more subtly

It really sucks that the Established Church has turned out to be the 4th beast in Daniel 7 with the 10 horns being the Churches which came out of Rome. Since you can find the words in Jeremiah 23 and 30:21-24, "In the latter days you will clearly understand it." Those verses apply to today.

Before the long winded reply, this presentation from Raph is brilliant. Well worth an hour:

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014555/Social-Mechanics-for-Social-Games

I say again, religious arguments can be used to manipulate and hurt. They can also be used to guide and help. There is a story from WWII where a film crew had permission to work in the Vatican. Since it is a state unto itself, the fascists and nazis couldn't arbitrarily seize persons within the Vatican. Montini was asked why the crew was taking so much time and he told his assistant that much of the crew was Jewish and he had told the director to take his time finishing the film. It was an artful dodge.

At the same time, on my FB page I'm dueling with the local republicans who claim that their hero Ronnie Reagan is the best ever. Object to that and they first call one ignorant, then given facts, they say one doesn't share their values, object to that and they call one un-American and threaten subtle threats, ask one to leave the country, then finally call on Jesus to get one. It's very predictable (the Republicans are easy to troll; they seldom have the facts or numbers, can't be bothered to do the math) and I'll take most of that with some humor. BUT when it comes to hijacking Christianity to justify their criminal behaviors, then I take the line and fight. That is unacceptable and if the Christians don't start standing up to these bastards and calling them on it, then religion is perverted. Faith becomes foul.

Our local UMC bishop has decided the Methodists have to stand up to the state over immigration law. It's a tough tough law and was passed by at least one fellow I'd hesitate to pull from a burning car; BUT the numbers are on their side and because of my last job, I've talked to the local police authorities in the counties where the numbers are highest. It's a complex issue and resorting to religion without doing the math is wrong. Asking the Christians to commit acts of civil disobedience in this case is dicey politics.

It's never as simple as we want it to be and it is case by case. IMHO, this is what we are called to do: think and decide. We are called to choose, not to meekly bow before authority or accept the argument purely on its emotional appeal and most particularly because of who makes it. Be it the Bishop, be it the President, heck be it Arlo, we have to think, reason and choose. Religion is not blind obedience or witless faith. It is love of God and the willingness to be as good a servant as one can in service of the creator, of creation, of, yes, love.

I don't need prophecy. I want to see the numbers. I want to see the provenance. And then if that is not enough, then I will trust the voice inside and pray for guidance. And if I'm wrong and boy I sure can be, forgiveness.

I've actually read several of the books. Don't care which god you pick, the basic message is love and tolerance. Nothing in the bible actually supports war if you look at the book as a whole.

If you are a christian your mandate is to love the Lord YOUR God, and your neighbor as yourself. It doesn't say only if they are legal or only if they believe what you believe.

Those Zen guys seem to break it down into easy to understand tenants. I love what they say you should think about before you say anything.

The basic message I get from the Curran is love and peace.

I know some people who claim atheism. They are some of the most loving and caring people I know.

You can pick words from any of these teachings to prove both sides of every argument. Just remember, you are the student, not the supreme being.

If you are claiming to represent any of these gods then get down to the business of it. Love your neighbor. That doesn't mean pray for them. That means help them when they're down. When they do something that hurts you, forgive them. Don't do things to hurt them.

@Kevin: What about " The streets are paved with gold."?...

Absolutely. Lots of similar messages in many of our favorite songs.

Here's something I got from George Harrison. He got it from a book called, "How to Know God."

"The soul does not love. It is love itself. It does not exist. It is existence itself. It does not know. It is knowledge itself."

i think the bible is written by and about a bunch of fumbling bumbling humans.



love i think is a good thing.

Thus Joshua struck all the land, the hill country and the Negev and the lowland and the slopes and all their kings. He left no survivor, but he utterly destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded.


Joshua 40, I guess you missed this one?

And if I am not mistaken doesn't it all come down to Jesus as a warrior God leading troops into battle on the plains of Megiddo or something like that?

If this is not in the Bible you need to tell the Jews and Christians because they are fucking up the world based on these two concepts! The Muslims picked up this stupidity some time ago so get them under control as well!