, ya'll?

I guess it is academic at this point to argue the merits of a candidate that probably won't be getting the nomination, but I am interested in understanding your support of him better.

I think my problems with Dr. Paul stem from his philosophy of governance. While I am not looking to government to address all society's problems, I do think it has a place in ensuring a basic standard of living, balancing the well-being of the people against the byproducts of industry and to step in and assist rebuilding areas hugely impacted by accidents, attacks or natural disasters.

So for example he does not support poor and working class families--he voted against raising the minimum wage multiple times, he voted against providing health insurance for impoverished children multiple times, he voted against an extension of unemployment benefits, and voted against several laws regarding organized labor (including a bill allowing labor unions for public safety officers).

He voted against the appropriation bills to provide aid to the south coast in the wake of hurricane Katrina. Again I think in extraordinary circumstances like these people look to their government to act. While I will say that understand Ron Paul's fiscal beliefs as to why not to provide aid more so than the President's initial apathy surrounding the disaster, I must say that I don't agree.

He believes property rights somehow trump environmental regulation. Not surprisingly, he has voted against Kyoto, raising cafe standards, voted for offshore drilling and drilling in ANWR. But if the government does not regulate emissions, there is no way to ensure private companies will behave responsibly in regards to our shared water and air resources.

He said he was against subsidizing the oil industry but voted against ending their subsidies. He is against government funded research for cheaper, cleaner alternatives to oil. I think that irresponsible from both an environmental and national security standpoint.

While he seems very dedicated to ensuring that 2nd and 4th amendment rights are not contravened, he gets selective with the 1st. He voted for Displaying the 10 Commandments in government offices and courthouses. He also voted for an Amendment to allow prayer in public schools and institutions. Which in both cases I feel is a push at the state establishing religion.

Lastly, I think his proposal for immigration is heartless. Example--requiring health care providers to report undocumented aliens and possibly deny them health care. The end result there is that people will suffer or die either because people will be afraid to seek care they need from fear they will be reported or because doctors will refuse to treat them. It is a complex issue, but his proposals seem to do little but drive undocumented labor further back underground. Allowing the industries and us, the us consumers, to continue to benefit from their cheap labor, without the fear of having to acknowledge them as people.

I have a show to do tonight, but thanks for the very thoughtful comments. I'll get to 'em as soon as I can find a few quiet moments... No hurry now anyway.

adg

wamikec, I agree with you on some of these issues, however, I can't agree about illegals getting free health or any type of welfare in this country for several reasons.
1. First of all, I seriously doubt that they received any healthcare in their home country.
2. I do not agree that illegals do jobs that americans won't do. Americans can't afford to work for the same low wages. Over 40 years ago my husband went to Florida to pick oranges and made a good wage. I mean, isn't that why Arlo's dad worked so hard to get decent wages for American workers, many of them field workers? All the employers should HAVE to pay at least minimum wage, OR be responsible for the healthcare, housing and food for their illegal workers instead of them being so poor they need HUD, Medicaid and food stamps.
3. Do you have any idea how difficult it is for a low-income american tax payer to get medical care, decent housing and food? I do because I've had cancer twice-cured both times, but I know we'll never live long enough to pay all the medical bills, or pay off our house.
I truly don't know what the answer is. It doesn't seem right to arrest people who have grown up in this country, but where do you draw the line? Frankly, we can't afford 12 million extra people, many uneducated as well as many who are criminals. These 12 million people could marched on Mexico City to demand a Mexican Dream, instead of stealing the American Dream.

So...here I am...the yellow dog...kindof...My first presidential vote was for Carter...although in the primaries I voted for the other guy...his name escapes me now, but I remember that he got federal funding because he got more than 15% (or maybe it was 13%) of the vote. I am ready for the leap.

I place a whole lot of weight with what you say Arlo. I never registered for the draft! There was no selective service when I turned eighteen. You are why this was possible for me (sadly my children were not afforded the same grace)...not singlehandedly...but yours was the voice I turned to for guidance.

I have many problems with Ron Paul. What scares me is that the media created vision I have of him might be wrong.

I guess what really scares me about the president thing is that you don't actually have to have a gajillion dollars to be president...you just have to know somebody that does...

Where is the common man? Where is everyman?

edited to say: (sadly my children were not afforded the same grace) and to fix some grammatical stuff...

I understand where you're coming from Goofus. I think that is why it is important for all of us to be able to see how the candidates have voted previously. I don't know many people who actually take the time to seek out that information though.

I sometimes find it difficult when there is too much rhetoric to get to the point of what is being voted on in the first place. (hope that makes sense)

I also think some candidates will say anything so they will be voted into office. I'm not saying that's what Ron Paul is doing, just that there are people out there running for office that do that.

That being said I found these websites you may be interested in for the Senate

http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/legisl ... /votes.htm

and for the House of Representatives

http://www.house.gov/

Goofus - The Democratic hopeful you were probably talking about in 1976 (opposing Jimmy Carter for the nomination) was Lloyd Bentsen. Although Ted Kennedy had his hat in the ring for both the '76 & '80 Dem nomination.

Is anyone watching Mike Huckabee? No seems to be taking him seriously, but many who wanted Romney and hate McCane could go for Huckabee instead of Ron Paul if they refuse to change their vote to democrat. I heard him say on TV today that he will not drop out because he's not in the math business (as in counting deligates) he's in the miracle business.

He was a pretty good governor in my state, but president? I don't know....

Since the mid 1970's I've been in a strange position with politics, Lets just say that due to my income earning methods I wasn't allowed to get too involved with various aspects of the political spectrum.

But I do vote. I vote my conscience as much as my pocket book. Yeah that can be rough but its honest. As an example so years back for a local vote; I questioned why the local school district wanted new buses. They replied it was a safety issue. I dug a little deeper. Their safety issue wasn't a mechanical defect of the buses. The drivers they were hiring couldn't drive manual transmissions. I voted no, as proper training of the drivers would of been more cost effective for the life span of the busses they had in the fleet.

In regards to the current crop of politicians buying time to sway us to vote for them. I'll review their senatorial voting records and political backgrounds. I've already discounted one candidate do to issues I have with that persons credibility.

But the sadest statement that can be made is"I don't vote because my vote doesn't count." Well remember one thing we've a Republic and not a Democracy. Our elected legislators through the Electorial College actually make the decisive votes. However come the November elections your individual vote is needed to determine which way the representative to the Electorial College casts their ballot sellecting the next president.

But regardless of our individual political persuasions we need to be active in promoting the candidate of our choice. And we can make a difference even if it is by being the vote which changes just one distict's Electorial college choice.

Well I tried to be polite and none political in my small discouse, but I've only one last comment: If you don't vote you shouldn't have the need to complain. You let others take your responsibility for you and make a choice for you.

So support the candidate of your choice, just dig a little deeper behind their rethoric and see if they really do support your best interests first.

Cheers & prosit, I registered as a member of the Beer Party.

Ron Paul often votes on the constitutional merits of a bill, not because its a particular piece of legislation that he advocates. Take ANWR for example. He believes (and by the word "believes", I mean "sees its constitutionally as such") that the decision to drill belongs to the state of Alaska, not the federal government. It would be difficult or impossible to find a single bill he hasn't voted on in this fashion.

Let's keep something in mind though: The Constitution is our rule of law. When people start saying that the Constitution isn't a "death pact", they need to look at the dire consequences of such a statement. It's the same train of thought that allowed for the undeclared wars in Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq. It's the same train of thought that allows us to pick, choose, and pay off dictators in foreign countries (Pakistan).

To assume that the way the man votes (often invoking a protest vote, which is usually followed by a press release explaining his reasons) is an extension of some internal core of apathy he possesses is, quite honestly, disingenuous at best. You need to stop looking at his votes and positions inside the current role of the federal government, and look at the end goal. For example, getting the federal government out of disaster relief, eliminating the welfare state, and the like, doesn't mean turning to the ones who need help the most and saying, "Sorry, you're shit out of luck." The end goal is to put state and, primarily, local governments on the front lines in dealing with disasters -- be them individual (such as a homeless man on the street) or broad (New Orleans).

And afterall, is that really something so difficult to grasp? That local people would be more up to the task of helping themselves? Look at how well FEMA performed in the wake of hurricane Katrina.

So there you have it. That's the future. A decreased federal role in the most vital areas of establishing and maintaining basic human needs. But it's a phased process that doesn't happen overnight. Dr. Paul advocates a ground up approach in everything he's taken a position on, from Social Security to the welfare state. Put protections in place BEFORE pulling the federal plug that we've all been so dependent on. Allow people to get out of social security BUT DO NOT say "shit out of luck" to those already dependent.

And the end result? A reestablishment of the rule of law and a rebuilding of a state and local safety net that would be x10 more efficient, reliable, and accountable for people living across this country.

I know, he's crazy, heartless, and has it out for the common man (sarcasm).

Hey this election we better make sure the man who sang the Beach Boy's song bomb bomb iran stays a Senator.
There are so many of us out here on this internet talking about important stuff you don't hear now on cable, solutions will appear, just as making the right opening moves in a chess game, will lead to simple wins.
For 50 years now Rock and Roll has been knocked by the establishment-yet they are the ones (Some Others) who have been singing of true peace and freedom. If only in tax the rich and feed the poor until there are no rich no-more.

Huckabee is my number one man & Ron Paul in 2nd place. When we went to see Arlo in Hampton Fri nite I saw some folks along the side of the road holding up Ron Paul banners. I saw some Ron Paul signs in Charlottesville, VA on the way to the Arlo show there yesterday...

As mentioned previously in this thread...

"In the long run, I don't expect that I will have a chance to vote for Ron for president. In which case, I hope I will be able to vote for Barak."

adg


I too hope to get to vote for Obama because...
We've been through (suffered collectively) so much in these last 7 years.

We've seen our fears exploited by greedy pols who have changed our Constitution.

We've seen a grand consolidation of presidential power and authority.

We've seen the suppression of opposition by using the bigoted belligerent phrase- for us or against us.

Now we hungrily yearn for true leadership to restore faith in our future.

Is there an upright leader running for president in this election?

If so, can we be wise enough to recognize and elect a truly upright leader?

How do we judge them - by their tv ads?

Do we judge them by what they say in sound bites?

Do we judge them by their voting record?

Do we judge them by their performance in debates?

Do we judge them by their sex or race?

Do we judge them using our heads?

Do we judge them using our hearts?

Do we judge them using our faith in God?

I wonder if we, in our busy grown up lives, overlook a judgement skill we knew as kids? You know, that sense of knowing inside if a person is trustworthy.

It may be one of the oldest judgement tools we have, maybe making it the best one we have.

Obama seems to be the person with the best chance of winning who is one of us, that is to say, one of the people. More so than those that have been part of the machine for too long. The true American Dream can and should be obtained without making your American dream someone else's American nightmare.We,as a nation, have had and have caused enough nightmares of late.

Hear, hear!!!