I am opposed to any declaration that a Jewish State or an Islamic State or a Christian State or any other "ism State" must exist on this planet. It was disheartening to see the Congress applauding that kind of Religious Nationalist Crap. I think Obama was right to challenge Israel and I think we, as a nation, should challenge every one who has a claim to that area of the world around Jerusalem to leave their religious, sectarian and tribal attitudes aside and start talking. I heard "we are willing for and will be generous as long as we get what we want" yesterday. I also heard "you have spent a lot of money so we can have this position, don't back away now". I don't care about a Jewish State, I want these people to stop killing and start talking. Part of the American philosophy (at least historically) has been the separation of church and state. We need to be more clear about that concept. I would like to see some of Netanyahu's proclamations tested to get some talking started.

i do think talking would be good, and listening...maybe see beyond some fixed legends, which are all of course the truth? (i mean aren't there a few different ones?)

i don't know!

Me neither! I think we wore out at least one thread talkin' about that question, and could probably wear out a bunch more!

What would be helpful would be a proposed map, a realistic proposal for the borders of a Palestinian state. Obama misspoke. There is a less than zero chance that the borders will return to their 1967 lines and any Israeli politician who supported repartitioning Jerusalem would be voted out of office very quickly. The US can wheedle, threaten, plead or withdraw support. Those are non-negotiable as far as I can tell. The outcome of Obama's faux pas is solidified support for Israel in Congress, and after Netanyahu's deft handling of it, probably the US in general. Obama's speech left a sense of confusion in White House policy. It's hard to tell what he intended but after Bibi slapped his wrist publicly, everyone is playing nice.

A discussion has to start with items that can be negotiated. The sticking point is Hamas. That is what Netanyahu put out there as a beginning of negotiation. So until we hear Abbas say something in reply to that and we see a proposed map, there isn't much to talk about. And Abbas knows if he does that without a lot of public support from the Palestinians, he's a dead man so a better starting point is a map.

As to the right to be a Jewish state or an Islamic state, I'm not a fan of theocracies. That said, hash that as you please because a democracy, Israel, chooses it and an oligarchy, Iran, enforces it. I don't think we in the US have much to contribute to that. We go our own way and have neither the right or the power to impose our beliefs. And we won't withdraw our support as long as we have to keep the Suez open and oil coming from the Arab states. So might as well not even start that discussion if what is wanted in this is a realistic proposal for peace assuming peace is really what is wanted and not just another thread hammering religion in general.

Nobody said we have the right or power to enforce our own belief's. Our Congress stood up and applauded the proclamation of the right of a Jewish State to exist. Why? Because many in this country want to throw separation of church and state out the window because America is supposed to be a "Christian" Republic. I love the selective interpretation of those who wrap themselves in the constitution when it comes to guns but the separation of church and state has been misinterpreted. Everybody knows that is just in there for churches to get tax breaks. I say pull out support for Israel now. I mean, all I hear is the deficit is in space. That crack about the Suez Canal is total bullshit. And religion needs to be hammered in general! Often and loudly. Until "believers" get their gods locked up and in control and stop killing people in the name of peace and love! That is like saying in 1963, oh, we have already discussed segregation, let's not bring that up again. Or in 1985 saying, oh, we have already discussed apartheid, lets not bring that up again.

So this is not about Middle East Peace but a trojan horse topic for pounding on religion and Christianity in particular. Have at.

Right, Religion has nothing to do with peace in the middle east. Insightful. I know, let's make a map and put the star of david behind these lines and the crescent moon over behind these lines and a cross behind these lines and tell ever body, stay behind your lines. That will work? Oh wait, isn't that the historical approach? Damn, well we should start with a map.

heraclitis, why would anyone want to understand about these things anyhow? (that is sarcasm, i don't mean it)

and speaking of wearing out threads...some of them around here have taken on the look of swiss cheese...? they seem to have developed a lot of holes! strange?

I just think that lines of separation are no longer viable. In fact, that could have been one of America's great legacies and it still might be, but drawing lines in the sand that separate, will not and can not work. We are one species and our ant hill on this planet is over flowing its bounds. Dilution is not a solution for humans on this planet anymore!

I dunno about "dilution," or concentration (exactly what you mean?), but I believe your assessment of our precarious position as (irresponsible) sentient beings is accurate. Humans are unique and individual; significant groups of humans, separated (as you said) by religion and/or nationalism, are fighting over increasingly scarce resources while the top 1% of the wealthiest people on the planet are making certain that these resources remain in their control. Remember the show, "Survivor?" A group of folks Stranded on an Island to "survive." But the rules of the game were completely twisted. Instead of working together for the common good, one wins the game at the expense of the others. In order to win this f*cked-up contest, you've got to get all you can from everyone else, and then screw'em.......eliminate them. I guess that's why they called it "Survivor" instead of "Survivors?"

Pete Seeger seems to me to be an optimistic kind of guy, yet he said (not all that long ago) that he gave humans about a 50-50 chance of still being around in 100 years........

I believe god is looking down shaking her head and saying: "I can't believe you think that is the promised land"...

Is anyone here familiar with the St Remos mandate?

It might be useful to understand the lines that have been drawn and the agreements by which they were laid down. The states you see on the maps in that region did not exist before 1919 so ancient claims have not a lot of traction. Otherwise, one would be ceding the land back to the Ottoman Turks. There are binding agreements in place and they are also places to start negotiations. Rule of law, treaties made and signed, etc., these are the meat of diplomatic negotiations not critiques of their souls with a hidden agenda to tear down the institutions of their states and ours. The latter is the burning spoon of rage addicts.

One does not call for better angels with bitterness and sarcasm. The reality of the arms, the tactics being applied and the current climate of warranted suspicion will not be overcome by telling them to play better with each other in the sandbox. It does not hurt to remind them of their humanity but first you have to grant that it is so.

Then get out the treaties and the maps and find where changes can be made by agreeable persons.

in case there is any confusion, or in case any should occur over this, my meaning here is that i think/agree it is good to talk about these things...we (humans) might even understand one another better? no bitterness involved. more like, "why would i want to sit next to you?" which would mean, "i would like to sit next to you." not sure i needed to clarify, but there it is
(maybe irony would have been a better word? sorry about that)



and this...i was a tad puzzled to find so many deleted posts on some other threads.

Wow! A mystery on the bench!

what happened to heraclitis' posts i read this morning? not deleted by poster like len's appear to have been, but gone.

i am guessing the site had some problems to cause them to vanish? since it was stuck when i first tried to sign on this evening, and when it was unstuck, the posts were unfortunately gone