Our young neighbor gal who just moved into her first apartment was one of the 4,500 Fingerhut employees who lost their jobs this week. Thousands and thousands of employees across the nation are being layed off or fired. I have a question.

You and I are constantly told by our leaders, the media, and sometimes family to set aside some money, enough to pay the bills for an extended period should the need arise. Great idea.

We just came through the largest economic expansion in *history* during the Clinton years. The best economy ever. Companies made record profits year after year in the 90's. Many many companies and their execs got filthy rich. Paradise.

Now, wouldn't you think that they could've taken a chunk of that profit and set it aside in a rainy day fund, enough to weather a recession like the one we're currently in? Wouldn't that be the smart thing to do long term?

I just get annoyed at how as workers, we're constantly told by the big dogs how we need to be responsable on many levels, while the American corporate mantra is "do as I say, not as I do." They think nothing of destroying lives and families, only to boost the share price for Wall St.

I'm not suggesting forcing them to do anything God forbid. Don't mess with Corporate rights (or Texas.) I just think that, on a voluntary basis, they ought to set aside enough during the good times to weather the rought times.

Is that a remotely realistic expectation?

It's really even worse than that. I don't really understand economics or business enough to comprehend the reasons, but today, if a public company does just about anything except inflate earnings for the current quarter its stock tanks immediately. Responsible business practices that protect the business..never mind the poor worker..are discouraged by the market. The only companies that seem to have a shot at acting half-way sensibly, and very occasionally humanely, are privately held ones. This is really mystifying to me, because it wasn't always this bad in that regard. Maybe it has something to do with all the day trading...people in it for the very short return. I don't know.

Could it have anything to do with the controls on business that were surgically removed during the Reagan years?

Oh, and edited to say, lcj, I like your idea, a lot. Maybe in the wake of the Enron/Arthur A debacle, corps. could be embarassed into doing something like that, or convinced it would be good PR to do it.

A plank for the campaign platform! (other thread): Corporate Rainy-Day Fund, must be overseen by a board comprising small stockholders, non-management employees, and n-m retirees. I think it even passes the confusion test, because most big business people would be very confused about the whole thing.

<center><FONT COLOR="#000080">--- Edited 1 times, lastly by Ceashel on Jan 18, 2002 ---</FONT></center>

It's a very good idea, but they can't be embarassed into doing anything. Forced, maybe..but they don't do embarassment. They to PR and spin control, but not humiliation even when it's so justified by the facts. That's why the top guys got as far as they did..shit floats.

i hear your pain lcj, and realize you are probably not a shareholder in any stocks, correct assumption?
As pat noted, public corporations are the ones who seem to violate the very rule they preach... and private companies do better at this... exactly because of their operating charters... when private, the monies are for the benefit of the partners, owners, and usually even for the employees to the extent that private companies understand that happy employees are loyal, and work to keep the company afloat. Public companies have a different charter... return on investment to the shareholders. Shareholders as a rule don't want to know about the company saving for a rainy day, they want their dividend NOW! In fact, in alot of cases, those shareholders are employees of other companies trying to improve their rainy day portfolios!!!! go figure!
This really is an individual problem I think, and not one you should go blaming the corporations for not providing a cushion. Once employed in a decent job, paying a living wage, it clearly is up to you how you spend your money, or choose to save it. Of course, your company shouldn't also be your bank! (or... don't shit where you breathe?)
I live in debt today, but I sock away as much as possible in retirement funds, staying away as much as possible from those funds tied to my company. We also try to save into an immediate fund "just in case". It costs us today, for hopeful security tomorrow. If you're not willing to pay the costs, then you get what you pay for, right? Many americans are reluctant to save. Many can't "afford" to. But I question how much of that is life-style conflicts.
Obviously those in jobs that just get by from check to check are in a different situation. Let's be fair here though. They have a job, as opposed to not. I've seen people start their own businesses from absolutely nothing but some good will. You earn what you put into the business. Nothing really stops anyone from quitting a job with a company that treats you poorly or underpays you, if you're willing to take the associated risks.
These people didn't sell their souls... they just took a job, with their eyes wide open I hope.
i think that's what i meant to say.. LOL!

Arnie, are you turning into a supply side conservative on us? I really think that business needs to be more responsible to the employee and if they protected themselves better to deal with bad times it would also be good for long term investors and maybe contribute to a more stable economy. I mean..I know it's not gonna happen, but I don't really see anything wrong with blaming corporations, with executives that earn huge salaries for running them into the ground, while the production employees work second jobs to get by and then have to bear the brunt of cutbacks. I don't think you can always take a job with your eyes wide open. Companies don't tend to tell you that their bookkeeping is dodgy, they're one step ahead of the SEC, or any of that. Some things could be turned up in research, I suppose, but some things are well hidden, and anyway, when you need a job, you need a job.

supply side??? me????? huh?????????

all i'm sayin' is let the individual be responsible for his/herself first.
Don't make your employer responsible to look out for you! Your employer is not necessarily a fortune 500 company, but more likely one of the thousands of smaller companies, just gettin by no larger than any mom&pop operation. Rules like rainy day funds, and ADA, and OSHA requirements are all well and good, but on the small employer they're sometimes strangling. If the employer can't keep a profit going, a rainy day fund isn't going to help, because once you start using the fund, everyone is going to bail... I mean, if a firm is going under, are you going to hang around waiting for your rainy day payment?? Thus, no firm would willingly announce that they are using any such fund. They're reluctant to announce Chapter 11, except it gets the creditors off their backs for a while.

I understand, but all lcj was saying, I think, is that corporations could be a little more responsible than they are. Actually it astounds me, seeing the idiotic ways that businesses are being run, and unfortunately, it's the small employee that gets hurt when it's a big company. The executive suite bails with golden parachutes. People are getting pissed about this stuff.

I still think lcj's idea is good. Small business is worlds apart from large corporations, and the rules and laws should not be the same. We have a tiny business and our one employee knows we do what we can for him, but there are no guarantees. But we never made any promises, either.

The people in Houston, some employees, some retirees, were lied to and shat upon because it was possible for the big guys to do so. They had done everything the way you're supposed to do it, but they were stolen from as surely as if guns had been held to their heads.

It's nice to have the background and education that enable you to understand how to secure, as best you can, your future. I'm guessing the majority of people in this country have only a vague idea about it and that they had little or no exposure at home or in school.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ceashel:

I still think lcj's idea is good. Small business is worlds apart from large corporations, and the rules and laws should not be the same. We have a tiny business and our one employee knows we do what we can for him, but there are no guarantees. But we never made any promises, either.

The people in Houston, some employees, some retirees, were lied to and shat upon because it was possible for the big guys to do so. They had done everything the way you're supposed to do it, but they were stolen from as surely as if guns had been held to their heads.

It's nice to have the background and education that enable you to understand how to secure, as best you can, your future. I'm guessing the majority of people in this country have only a vague idea about it and that they had little or no exposure at home or in school.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't disagree that they were lied to, and possibly (probably) manipulated, but again, that could have happened in a two-man shop too! You said it yourself, NO GUARANTEES, No Promises! So why should an employee expect anything more than a paycheck, and whatever 'benefits' are stipulated upon being hired?? At what point does a 'small business' become a big business?? Why should basic rules and obligations of employer and employee change with size? I'm sorry, but I can't look upon every major corporation as evil and greedy. Even the most well intentioned corporations will back off of employee goodwill if it threatens to collapse the structure, in the best interest of their shareholders/owners.
Hey! for capitalism to work, ya gotta allow the capitalists to do their thing too!
Would I mind being a wealthy entrepreneur, sure, why not... but frankly, I'm not that kind of workaholic, and so I enjoy my life better on the receiving end of the paycheck... and thus I have to acclimate myself to the fact that THEY are gonna make more than me, but I'll bet I'm richer in other ways

I think Arnie has a good point here. When we start saying that the big dogs running the companies should provide a bit of a blanket for it's employees, you start getting morals and integrity involved in business, which unfortunately is very rare these days. It is all about the money - not the people. And that is very unfortunate. Business now is run without feeling or compassion. So to ask for security in that seems to be a little out of reach. Maybe I'm wrong in my outlook of Corprate America, but as a person who is just starting to find my way in all of this financial mumbo jumbo - I'm only 24 - I would think we'd be better off to plan a little more for ourselves first and then work on trying to bring ethics back into the business. That seems a little more secure to me.

It's not just about job security. I think we'd all agree that that is will not and can not happen. However, the people in Houston didn't just lose their JOBS, their retirement money is GONE--indeed, stolen from them. As Cea said, they were shat upon. They were trying to plan for the future--that's why they had a retirement account.

I lived near Detroit 20 years ago and remember well the devastation it caused when the big 3 were in trouble. It certainly did not affect just the big boys. Many small companies who depended on the car factories for their revenues also folded. Many people lost not only their jobs, but retirement funds. Devastating enough for younger folks trying to feed families, but when you're near retirement age and your entire life savings is gone, it's tragic.

Many of us have had to start over at some point in our lives, probably several of us more than once. It's never easy, gets harder the older we become, and becomes nearly impossible when it affects a whole region. My sympathies are with the employees who've gotten screwed and with the small business owners who'll lose their businesses as a result.

No, I don't expect corporations to grow a heart. I do wish there were some way the evildoers could be made to cough up the funds they stole.

Thanks for letting me get that out of my system.

Arnie, I don't think you understood what I was saying about our little business. The employee gets paid, no matter what. We go in the tubes, he does get what we promised. We don't promise what a big corporation can, but what we promise, we will do. He knows, without a doubt, that we would sell our own house to pay him what we owe before we would stiff him.

A big corporation can do that, but they don't have to, so they don't, because it isn't people to people anymore, it's the "entity" of the corporation, which is soulless and valueless and without morals, dealing with people.

I'm sorry, but "that's the way it is," is not good enough. This has to change. I agree totally with Pamram, and maybe its my age, but I know that both of us have survived ups and downs, been "let go" or nearly so, and moved on and kept going. But now I'm very near retirement age, and I don't have the options I used to. If I don't make it to retirement unscathed, I'm under a bridge after giving 22+ years to this company. That is not right, it is not what we were told and promised before 1980. It has changed for the worse starting in 1980, and it is wrong.

If you ask nicely, I'll tell you how I really feel. <img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif" width=15 height=15>

Yeah, what Ceashel and Pam said. And there are definite legal differences between a small company and a large one. There's even a Small Business Administration. That's all pretty much covered in law. Most people don't come in contact with enough money to secure their future against any eventuality, especially if they've been raising a family, too. Remember when people had pensions? Of course, now those get stolen, too, a lot of the time.

I am begining to think that I am a curse for anyone I work for the last six have gone broke but none lost any sleep over not paying me....to me security means having a pack of cigerettes for tomorrow, everything else will work it's self out.

Life and happyness are both beyond the pocketbook, I am certainly more happy then any who would cheat me, of course if I had children I might see things otherwise.