You know, maybe if GW had been bright enough to get through law school, and had worked in a trial or two, he'd be able to create a sentence that could be understood.

"I know it's hard to put food on your families."

I for one, have never and will never misunderestimate George W. Bush.

......malpractice is certainly an interesting discussion......and in no way do i want to write this a put down for a good discussion of it......in fact, if i weren't concerned about something else i'm reading between the lines.....i'd join in ....

....right with you Larry...never underestimate the Bush(es)......they've been in power since i was a kid and that's
..a long time....

...here's my thought....instead of keeping an eye out for your local terrorist cell planting a bomb at the nearest shopping mall.....try taking a step back to see what the Republicans are doing to manipulate you....
....there's a very often used, dangerously successful tactic called used by those in power to control their ..uh...constituents....call 'feed the beast'....
....the trick is to throw some info into the public eye(true or not) that will trigger strong reactions/disagreements and create conflict among groups who would ordinarily stand by each other.....
...it continues to be highly effective among the lowest economic groups in the forms of racism and materialism....to name a couple.....and whilst everyone argues, forms gangs, etc, etc....who stands up to the oppression/oppressors...who even sees it?......it's very effective....
....and this is a fine issue to divide the middle class with.....and there will be dozens and dozens of these in the next few months....that you may not think will change your vote....but may effect how active you are in working to change this government.....and for those who can't decide....it could be fatal....

....so what i'm saying... and Pat alluded to it...is keep your eye on the ball....
...the last statistic i heard, right or wrong is the 2000 Americans control 80% of the wealth....if that's even close.... everyone else is oppressed.....BUT if the some of the rest of us could stick together for a day at the polls....we damn well already outnumber them....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kj:

the last statistic i heard, right or wrong is the 2000 Americans control 80% of the wealth....if that's even close.... everyone else is oppressed.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not one of the 2000 and I don't feel as if I'm oppressed. I feel that I've earned my money by planning, going to college, doing things according to being an American, living the American dream. I don't believe in redistributing MY wealth to people who refuse to get off their butts and actually earn their own money.

At the same time, I don't believe in getting rich off the backs of lawsuits against doctors. Nor do I believe we should be fighting a war in Iraq, but I DO believe we should have kicked their butts back in 90/91 when Poppa Bush had the chance. I also believe we sure as hell should be at war against the Al-Qaida cells who attacked us.

Furthermore, I believe in the capitalist system of a market economy. I do NOT believe in "working mothers" or unions.

I've put it out on the table. I guess I'm just a Republican Capitalist Pig (my husband added the "pig" part... maybe because of my Milky Way habit).

If it weren't for the war in Iraq, I'd probably vote for Bush in November. As of right now, I'm still undecided. But I'm sick of the way this country is run, especially during the Clinton years. Long before his sexual prowess came into the picture.

And what really gets me is the news media. During Clinton's last year in office, I heard on the radio that unemployment "plummeted" to something like (and I'm taking a guess right now) 4.8%.

Yet toward the end of Poppa Bush's term, unemployment was "at a high of 4.8%". How utterly ridiculous is this? When it's someone you like, unemployment is "low" but that same figure is noted as being high when it's someone you don't like!

Terrie, just for one thing..one little thing..did you know that most people in homeless shelters have jobs? Did you ever stop to think that some of the jobs they have once might have been able to support a family, albeit modestly. Now that the unions that Woody wrote so many songs about are all but dead, those jobs just buy a life of poverty. Did it ever occur to you that even if you do it on your own, the fact that you can take advantage of an education means that you have some advantages, if only genetically? Half the blue collar adults that I knew as a kid who were raising fine families couldn't make it in this world today. Comparable jobs to the ones they did, if they exist, pay $7 an hour now. If they provide benefits at all, they're expensive. The people I'm thinking of were doing the best they could then. There's no room in this country for people like that now.
Did you know that it's the norm, not the exception, for a family not to be able to make it on one income these days? I'm not talking about money for extras. I'm talking about paying the rent. Truth is, most working mothers I know would love to stay home, at least for a while, but they can't.

As for employment now as opposed to in the 90's, it was so different that I know they're lying about the current stats. People are staying unemployed longer, more people are underemployed, people are not able to find jobs as good as the ones they lost and there are no, none, nada, zip new industries emerging to replace the jobs that we're sending overseas to "low-cost" countries.

Glad you're feeling insulated, but shit happens. If it doesn't happen to you, maybe you're just damned lucky and not better than anyone else.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terrie:
And what really gets me is the news media. During Clinton's last year in office, I heard on the radio that unemployment "plummeted" to something like (and I'm taking a guess right now) 4.8%.

Yet toward the end of Poppa Bush's term, unemployment was "at a high of 4.8%". How utterly ridiculous is this? When it's someone you like, unemployment is "low" but that same figure is noted as being high when it's someone you don't like!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may want to look at these tables... It looks like "Toward the end" of George I's term, unemployment peaked out at about 7.5 %, not 4.8, after going up for most of his presidency.

That's in contrast to Clinton's years, when unemployment seemed to only go down.

And then in came Bush II, who is the first president since Hoover who can claim the honor of having fewer jobs in the country at the end of his term, than at the start.

I certainly agree about media bias - but not that it's (any longer) geared toward the left.

Yearly graph of unemployment, 1948 - About Present, -

http://www.safehaven.com/images/petch/1114_b.gif

And "Weekly" (though it's really not) graph of unemployment, 1993 - About Present

http://www.safehaven.com/images/petch/1114_a.gif

Edited to remove unintentional sexual innuendo

<center><FONT COLOR="#000080">--- Edited 1 times, lastly by star on Jul 09, 2004 ---</FONT></center>

What Pat said! Glad all your planning worked our for you, Terrie and things are so rosy in your part of the world, but it doesn't work that way for everyone. Mark also planned and went to school. Spent years going to night school while working full time to get his degree...got excellent reviews at work and still got laid off when IBM sold the local plant (in the town where IBM started, btw) to a local group that didn't want strangers buying it and closing it down. Of course, 2 weeks after they bought it, they laid off a pile of long term (read the higher paid) employees. 2 years later they're still laying people off...I guess that's the slow way of buying it and closing it down. He's now one of the underemployed...working again, but for half as much money...doing the same work, btw.

I have my own little story. After 19 years with a local bank, we were bought out by the monster Chase and the entire operations department was sent packing. So, I decided to be a non-working mother for a while, but the financial situation got so dire, I had to go back to work. I found a job I loved at AAA, but those kinds of jobs don't pay so very well, and have no benefits. When Mark got laid off, I knew I had to find a real job, so I went to the one very long term local bank that was left in the area and got myself a job in banking again. On Christmas Eve, nine months after I started there, the ever gracious CEO called all the employees to the lobby to announce that he had negotiated a buy out of our lovely little bank and proceeded to tell us how good it would be for the bank. It was mighty good for him and his 1.2 million dollar buy-out. It was not so very good for the 170 operations dept folks, including yours truly, who were losing their jobs. Fortunately, I've been able to find work, although I find it interesting that I'm making what I was back in 1991 when I lost the first banking job...and it's considered good pay around here anymore. It was good pay in 1991, not so much now.

My daughter has been fortunate enough to find a job with the plumbers union in the health fund office. Great union benefits...I hope she can keep the job until she retires! Go unions!

btw...when I was a young divorced mom, I would have loved to stay home with my toddler. Would you have been happier if I had quit my job and gone on welfare so I didn't have to be a "working mother"?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terrie:
...I don't feel as if I'm oppressed...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dear "Walks in Beauty,"

Terrie, I'm glad you 'walk in beauty.' It's a nice goal. I'm also 'lucky.' I have a good job of 25 years that I've worked damned hard to keep; a nice house in a nice neighborhood, and a nice car. I guess in that sense I'm not oppressed, either.

But the Bush administration is waging war on, not only American women, but all the women in the world of child-bearing age, by refusing to contribute funds FOR ANY PURPOSE to any medical facility anywhere in th word that even MENTIONS abortion. In my name as an American, my government has savaged the Navajo and all other First Peoples of this continent, the Hawaiians, African Americans, Chileans, Vietnamese, Iraquis--you name them--any non-white population; any population that threateans domination by the Club. They're also shipping Americans' jobs overseas as fast as they can. My 56-year-old brother-in-law left us in early June because after a lifetime of work, Haliburton bought Dresser Industries and eliminated his job and all he can find is a computer managment job in Kuwait.

The war on Iraq is horrible, but that's not the disease, it's only the latest symptom. The disease can be traced back for hundreds of years. Recent "vitals" of one of its victims:

In 1999, there were 250,000 members of the Navajo Nation. Forty-six percent of the reservation's 165,600 residents was unemployed. Per capita income was only $5,599. The poverty rate was 56%. Total Salary and Benefits were $830 million. Income from arts and crafts was $15 million. There were 824 employers on the Navajo Reservation. The top 3 employers as of 12/31/97 were Peabody Western Coal Company (706 employees), Four Corners Power Plant (563) and the Navajo Generating Station (552). (Ariz. Daily Star 12/14/99)

I'm not physically oppressed now. But spiritually, who could not be?

I will not be one of the ones who kept quiet until they came for me.

I'd like to respond to Pat's post, "the fact that you can take advantage of an education means that you have some advantages, if only genetically" I'm not any more advanaged than anyone else. I have the same financial aid and students loans that other students have. The difference is: I made the decision to GO to college, to DO something with the time I have in this world. I don't know what genetics have to do with it, but if you are referring to my being "white" let me assure you that the student body at both of my colleges is VERY racially mixed. As are the economic backgrounds as well as countries from which they come. We have students from all over the world attending the community college which our <u>Democrat</u> governor just royally screwed out of 1/2 million dollars in REQUIRED BY LAW funding. And so the college has to raise tuition while the state grants to students are going DOWN. And yet we all manage.

As of August, I will have 4 of my 5 family members in college! And my husband works for the state of PA, and this same governor just royally screwed the state workers, the college professors at the 14 state universities, out of decent contracts but pushed for legalized gambling to supplement his liquor-by-the-drink tax to fund public education.

This same democrat governor nearly drove Philadelphia into the ground when he was mayor, his drink tax now stands at 10 BILLION dollars UNaccounted for by the school district.

I stayed home to raise the kids I brought into the world. THAT was my JOB. Shortly after we bought our first house, just 10 years ago, he lost his job. He was out of work for 1-1/2 years. We were getting medical assistance, food stamps, welfare. It was sink or swim. He finally CHOSE to swim... got a job (with the state in the welfare office) and went back to school. He's making less money now than he did when we bought the house (10 years ago), but somehow we manage. There are times we live from paycheck to paycheck and each month, one bill doesn't get paid and we have to juggle the shut-off notices. But we manage!

I am eligible for disability, how easy it would be to sit back and collect! I could watch TV all day, eat my Milky Ways and just wallow away my days. I could go to my kids' school events, I could have friends over for lunch. I could take long, luxuriating naps.

Instead, I chose to work my butt off in school, none of the tuition is paid for by me. I am an Honors Student, member of 2 National Honor Societies and President of the Anthropology Club. I am no more advantaged than anyone else, if anything I am at a great disadvantage, being 50 and female, and disabled. The students are wary of me before they get to know me. I'm older than most of my professors.

I can understand where you are coming from and I've seen a lot of manufacturing in PA go down the tubes. Jobs are scarce, but the way to encourage job growth is to stimilate the economy by lowering taxes to both individuals and corporations. I know it's "trickle-down" but that's how our economy works.

A big reason why 2 incomes are needed is a form of trickle-down. Before moms worked, dad supplied everything the family needed. But then all of a sudden, women started entering the workforce and families could now afford to buy things they didn't "need."

Now the neighbors see these families with "luxuries" and they want them too. So the next group of moms goes to work to buy "things." Simple supply and demand, the prices go up. Now the moms who really do NOT want to work have "no choice" because prices for just about everything have gone up. And to stay afloat they MUST work.

I don't "need" all those luxuries. I have a 3-story 100-year-old house. I have 9 computers, 5 TVs, 8 VCRs, 4 DVD players, 3 digital cameras, 2 camcorders... and do I really "need" all those toys? NO! But I have them simply because things have a way of coming my way. We also have 5 cars (4 drivers and 1 spare). My daughter's car is the youngest at 10 years old. Mine (the one I drive to The Church) is 16 years old! My oldest is a 20 year old Mercury Colony Park, gas guzzler workhorse that's used as a "spare" when one of the other cars is in the shop. We don't buy "newer" cars simply because what we have work just fine. We have no consumer debt other than our mortgage. We buy what we need and rarely what we "want" because we don't "need" to participate in "conspicuous consumption."

We manage to "get by" because of "creative" budgeting. I live on my financial aid. I renovated one of my bathrooms on MY money alone. The kitchen is scheduled for Christmas break.

It's all about perspective. A family of 5 can make it on one income. It's a matter of priorities, of finding the best prices, buying used, not having to "keep up with the Joneses." And there's always Goodwill and other "thrift" shops. Not to mention the do-it-yourself when it comes to renovations and gardening!

I am so tired of hearing "I can't" and "it can't be done." I've heard that all my years with Lance and it makes me sick to my stomach. If I can do it, there's NO excuse for anyone else. If someone WANTS to go to college, there's plenty of money out there in financial aid and student loans. It's simply a matter of "wanting to badly enough."

Now you all know so much more about me and my life than I know about any of you, but that's OK. I didn't want you to think I'm some rich, spoiled brat. I've worked hard for everything I have. And I have pride and self-respect for having done it against a lot of odds.

Nobody thinks you are spoiled, rich brat Terrie...it is a good thing that you work hard...the spoiled rich brats have prospered on the backs of people like you.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by deb:
btw...when I was a young divorced mom, I would have loved to stay home with my toddler. Would you have been happier if I had quit my job and gone on welfare so I didn't have to be a "working mother"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Deb, I'm sorry. I keep forgetting to qualify my "working moms" statement. No, of course, single moms genuinely do have to work to support their children and I give them a LOT of credit for being able to juggle working and supporting a child/ren all by themselves. I certainly wouldn't want to be a single mom, I couldn't have handled it.

However, it's the moms who didn't HAVE TO work, whose husbands had GOOD jobs or at least jobs that managed to support their families who ruined it for all the moms who were home but saw the "extras" that extra money could buy.

And I do think that a single mom on welfare is doing what she needs to do if her being on welfare is legitimate. She can collect, put the child in nursery school at a university, be on campus and earn a college degree and be able to visit with the child during the schoolday, have lunch together. Most college campuses have a nursery school and usually a welfare mom can get the nursery school for FREE while getting PELL and State Grants for her own education. That's a win-win situation. It's exactly what I did with Michael! He loved it and got the benefit of nursery school and I earned a college degree at the same time.

I don't know the welfare rules in other states but here in PA they (several years ago) changed the rule about going to college. They realized that too many welfare moms were graduating from one degree program and going back for a different degree as a way of staying on welfare. The state finally said "college doesn't take the place of a job so we're not paying anymore." I think that's SO wrong. If a welfare mom (single mom) wants to better herself and go to college, or a trade school, why not let her? She could have ended up being the one to find "the" cure for cancer or be a compassionate nurse, or the president of a company, or a top notch secretary or whatever. Our welfare system KEEPS people stuck in the system and that sucks!

There's an old saying, "if you give a man a fish, he eats for a day. if you teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime." Or something like that.

I'm all for helping people however possible, but people are responsible for their own outcomes (job layoffs not included). It's those who are lazy and WANT to live on welfare or moms who WANT more "stuff" that upsets me when talking about the economy.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terrie:

The difference is: I made the decision to GO to college, to DO something with the time I have in this world. And I have pride and self-respect for having done it against a lot of odds.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Terrie, good for you! Really. But please understand that a lot of people who have done exactly the same as you are living under bridges or have had to go to other parts of the world to maintain their families, and that is not going to change unless we change our government and our country in significant ways.

Terrie, I understood you the first time. I don't think you understood me. There are people who aren't capable of succeeding in college no matter how hard they work at it. Of course, even if they do, there's no guarantee as you can see in Deb's post. My husband was laid off when he was recovering from a critical illness. He's working, because we knew someone. Quite a few of the people he worked with, including some he regarded as more capable than he, have not been so fortunate. He's had subsequent serious illnesses. We're making less and if anything happens to this job his health will probaby not allow for another job search. His old job, which he'd held for 20 years, was outsourced to India via our "free market".

As far as being able to make it on one income, just try it when there are no homes for less than $300,000 or apartments for less than $1500 a month and those are in modest areas and conservative estimates. That's what it is here now. People who can leave, are doing so. Families are breaking up and it's sad, but a lot of people get caught in a Catch-22 before they can get out. If there's a serious illness or other circumstance that drains finances it can be impossible to move. A custody agreement can preclude moving. Ther e are a lot of hard-working people who are about two paychecks away from homelessness around here. You know what happens if they do become homeless? They can go into emergency housing. If they have income, they have to pay..a lot..for that housing. Almost everything they make can go to it. Because of the way Reagan's administration set up federal funding for emergency housing, they get moved all the time. It becomes impossible for people to maintain employment or for kids to do well in school because they're moved all over the place and they wind up missing school while in the process.

Lots of shit happens to lots of people. The thing to think when you're doing well is not how proud you are of yourself as compared to the next person, but rather, "There but for the grace of God go I." That seems to have been how Woody always thought. Arlo, too, in his way.

Shelley, I know about what goes on in Navajoland. Lance and I have talked about the day that we (I) can get out there and maybe start a business and get some of their people to work. What our government (and even before America as a country existed) did to ALL the Indians, as well as the Blacks and others, was downright criminal.

I don't know if I'll ever have the money to actually be able to start a business out there to help the Navajo and it is a lofty goal, but I want to. It's just one more of my dreams-goals.

What I really want to do is be a college prof teaching anthropology classes while working with museums and repatriating Indian bones back to their rightful owners, the tribes. I have to finish my PhD in order to do any of that, but it's my goal.

As for making money off of me, every business makes money off of everybody as we are all consumers, whether we like it or not. As a business owner, I'm sure Cliff knows what it's like to have to pay taxes as an individual and owner of the business and maybe he has a few employees. You guys with your own businesses deserve a lot of credit for sticking with it. I'd be way too scared right now to be in business for myself. I'd be terrified.

It's the multi-million dollar salaries that are outrageous and yes, the outsourcing that's been going on. Dell, DSL, when I have to call for technical support all I get are the "other" Indians on the line. That's an American disgrace, too.

I realize that I opened yet another can of worms here with my talk about "working moms" and stuff, and I'm sorry if I upset anyone. I certainly didn't mean to as I'm a very compassionate person, really I am. And I'm VERY sympathetic to those who've lost jobs because of outsourcing, NAFTA and all that. Remember, my husband was unemployed for 1-1/2 years and I know jobs are hard to find.

I was working part-time at the college between classes (while Michael was in school) and I made $8.50 an hour as the computer tutor. Because of funding shortages, I'm no longer working and there's no tutor in the lab this summer. I don't know if the funding freeze for my job will defrost, so I'm out of work. That doesn't bother me nearly as much as the fact that my students don't have me there to help them. I've offered to volunteer to be there during my non-class hours, but that was turned down as it would set a precedent that the college doesn't want. So the students go without help this summer and that upsets me more than the loss of my $8.50 an hour.

I apologize to all I've offended with my big mouth and opinionatedness. But I have to admit, I do love reading the posts, as it does force me to open my eyes and shut my mouth.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terrie:

Shelley, I know about what goes on in Navajoland....it does force me to open my eyes and shut my mouth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Open your soul but don't shut anything. I have to say that to myself every day.

Good night, all.