"We are going to default on Americas debt, so we might as well get it over with and rip the band-aid off." Is this an example of free market or Libertarian fiscal responsibility?

"The way you pay for wars or anything else is not by confiscation. It is like saying that the only way McDonald's can earn a profit is by automatically withholding money from peoples paychecks, when in fact they make billions by charging for a product/service. Is that what war is a product or service? I don't recall ordering or contracting anybody for that one, can I dispute the bill?

"There are rich and there are poor; this is a fact of life and has been that way for thousands of years. What is the one thing that has given the poor the best chance to become rich? Capitalism." Was this a vision from a superior being or is this an actual physical law of the universe that has been adequately tested and confirmed?

It is an example of what happens when socialism takes hold of a capitalistic society. I think it is quite clear that it is the entitlement programs of America that is bankrupting her. You can call it war if you want, but defense spending is about 15% of the national budget. Social Security itself is 23%, Medicare and Medicaid are about another 20%. There is about another 12% in various other entitlements. Were we not trying to create tie games, but instead creating level playing fields, we would have boat loads of cash in the coffers at our current oppressive tax rates.



Yes, war is a product that you purchased. You can dispute the bill at the ballot box. No matter who you vote for though, you are going to get the same bill, with the exception of maybe Ron Paul. See why a Constitution is so important?



It is as factual cats eating mice and the sky looking blue. Can you name me some other point in history before the United States came along, where more people had access to employment, capital, health care, private land ownership, etc..? No you cannot.

Oh, just a bunch of philosophical bullshit! I'm on board now! Let's go piss off some commie liberals, yea!!!

Do you ever respond with facts?

I'm not speaking for heraclitis, mind you, but none of this has really been about facts. Sure, we've thrown some facts around, but only as they support our ideologies, or discount others we don't believe in. This discussion here in many ways mirrors the larger debate going on across the country.

You feel we are espousing total socialism, which is not the case. I'm looking at socialist states that operate with capitalism under strict regulation. The government's top priority is the welfare of its citizens. States like Denmark, Sweden, Norway, The Netherlands.........there is almost zero unemployment, homelessness, hunger, or lack of medical services FOR EVERYONE

My disagreement with your line of reasoning comes when you say that we should eliminate social programs because the people with money will fill in the gaps and "everyone will take care of every everybody." I really REALLY would love to live in a world where this was so. But right now in the U.S. it ain't happenin'.

sorry double post..

First of all, we subsidize these countries "wonderful" lifestyles because they pay zilch for their military, because we protect THEM. Throw away 15% of our bills and we could have socialized medicine here too (not that I want that).

See any immigrants in Denmark? I can tell you there are not many because they are a xenophobic country. Forget the 15-20 million ILLEGAL immigrants in this country, how about the 40 million legal ones we have here now? Good luck doing that in Denmark considered that would be 8 times its current population. Pretty easy to run a utopia with 5 million xenophobes, but doesn't quite work out when you at 295 million plus more citizens, up to half who are dependent in some way on the government. The highest tax rate in Denmark is almost 65%, not to mention their VAT which added something like 200% to the cost of things such as cars. So not only do they take a good chunk of the fruits of your labor, they tax the shit out of anything else you have left. Some utopia.. It is an effective 70% tax rate. But hey, if coercive redistribution of wealth is your thing, you might feel right at home there.

Let's look at education, on average of all of those countries, people in the US receive far more education than any of them. But of course, in Denmark you get a free education, if they allow you to, see they decide how many doctors, architects, and engineers they will educate, otherwise get used to swinging a hammer.

Oh, and what great medical care they have in Denmark! Life expectancy has barely moved since 1970. I don't see why people are not flocking to Denmark hospitals to wait in line for treatment?

Well at least there is no wall in Denmark keeping them inside, well, no physical walls I should say. Want to leave like any other free person in the world? Well first you have to pay back the country for the "free" education they gave you, otherwise back to your cage.

Sorry, you may find security living in a zoo where all your needs are met, I on the other hand will take option B thank you.

I might have left a few facts here and there if you look close but I think we all agree you possess the most facts! If facts were money you would be one wealthy dude and be able to help any of us fact poor critters with a spare fact or two!

How was that for a fact?

About average I would say..

I am supposed be in awe of this insight? Capitalism was not born in America. Employment comes and goes at the whim of the economy and has not been around at times in America. Even when it was available, it did not necessarily mean the "good life". Health care, again has not always been accessible to the population of America. The entitlements that are so trendy to bash these days, they were conceived to help deal with the failures of capitalism. They are an issue today not because they are failures (millions are dependent on them) but because they were mismanaged. Shortsighted mismanagement. That is really America's forte. It is a bipartisan strength. It is a strength of both the public and private sectors. If you go to Congress today and listen to them bicker rhetoric without listening, you will see that it has damn near destroyed this country.

By the way, I don't believe the Constitution is sacred nor was it ever intended to be sacred. I don't think anybody who signed that document had the foresight or the Nostradamus insight to understand the issues and problems confronting America and Humanity in the 21 century. I am not saying I don't respect it, I just don't believe to be an act of superior beings.

Wow, if that is the way you see the economy then I feel sorry for you. Employment comes out of necessity. If I need to employ someone so I can grow market share and expand my business and profit, I hire them. It has nothing to do with "whims" as you say. The amount of regulation today makes it harder and harder to hire people. This benefits the broken entitlement system. The entitlements you say were aimed to "fix capitalism" have done no such thing. It has broadened the gap between rich and poor and decimated the middle class. The more you interfere with capitalism, the more you break it.

The Constitution was written by men in response to people who believe as you do; they understood that a centralized government interfering with the liberty of the individual, leads to a tyrannical leviathan. I have done some extensive reading on the how the Constitution was derived and can tell you that it was thought out with extreme care. These men had lived in a world full of, and under tyrants. They were students of history who were well aware of what had been tried before. They came up with a framework to restrain federal government, not empower it as you would have it. While not a sacred document, it truly is a noble one.

Wow, if that is the way you see history then no wonder you think the way you do. C'mon man what kind of response is that. More rhetoric bullshit. You got it down though!

I didn't say anything about supporting a centralized government? I said the public and private sectors both exceed at mismanagement.

Are you telling me the Markets never spin out of balance and leave people destitute? Are you telling me there would good old days before the entitlements when people did not suffer from the failures of capitalism? I guess that whole great depression is a myth?

Tyrannical Leviathon: The rebellion against England was not about tyrannical imposition, it was about people feeling they did not get their fair cut. So in fact, you would have been a Tory? What's up with that?

Can you tell me one thing the government has done to stop markets from spinning out of balance as you call it? If anything, the government is directly causing bubbles with its monetary policy. Are you telling me people are not suffering today from the absolute failures of socialism here in the United States? With an 8% REPORTED unemployment rate? Talk about bullshit...

Ever hear of the term taxation without representation? If you really think the revolution was about not getting their fair share of entitlements, you really have drank all of the kool-aid..

You are the one who supports American Socialism? You say preserve and protect the rich and their interests at all cost for the greater good. Have you not been following the argument? (By the way, at the time of the constitution, that more closely resembled the Federalist argument the anti Federalist argued that might unfairly impinge on their business, slave-based Capitalism).

Entitlements. Most Americans are entitled to the entitlements BECAUSE THEY PAID FOR THEM! The problem is MISMANAGEMENT! Mismanagement is American as apple pie!

As far as the revolution, it is OK, most people confuse the French and American revolutions. They were both born of modernization and the enlightenment and it is easy to get them confused philosophically!

Entitlements = Socialism. Americans did not pay for them. The money they sent in was used on other projects. There is no trust fund. It was all spent. Of course it was mismanaged, because government is inherently EVIL. Then they always point the finger at businesses or the rich, or whatever minority they can at the time. But here you are supporting MORE entitlements. Let's let them mismanage more of it! YAY SOCIALISM!!