I just read this today, I have translated it from German, so some language mistakes might have happened. But I declare that I haven't added or left something out:

<FONT size="4">US soldiers shot 12 civilians </FONT s>

US soldiers have shot at least 12 civilans near Nasirija, reported by an" embedded" journalist of the "Sunday Times", among them women and children.

London - The civilians were passing a bridge which was to be kept by the US marine infantrists "under all circumstances".

The scenario of the killed civilians has been "horrible", the reporter who accompanied the soldiers, Mark Franchetti,says: "About 15 vehicles blocked the road. They were scattered with bullet holes. Some (...) were still burning. Inbetween the wrecks I counted 12 civilians. "They all tried to leave this southern town overnight, obviously out of fear to be killed by an US helicopter attack or infantry fire. Their mistake has been to flee over a bridge with great strategic meaning for the US and to run into the arms of young marine infantrists which were scared to death and had the order to shoot at anything moving".

Franchetti describes "a little girl, not older than five, with a nice suit of orange and gold, dead in a brook, besides a body which could possibly have been her father. Half of his head was gone." The US soldiers partly feel no sorrow about that incident: "The Iraqi are sick people, and we are their chemo therapy", one namely known officer said. He were about "to hate this country."

Riot Act, I have no way of knowing what happened there or if the report is true. Most of our soldiers are not out to kill civilians, but they've been sent into a situation that has turned out to be guerilla warfare, like Vietnam, only with sand instead of jungle. They were prepared and sent out to fight one kind of war, only to find out that they were fighting another and it's the kind of war we ought never to be sending our troops to fight again. I'm not prepared to blame them anymore than I'm prepared to blame the enlisted men in Vietnam. They're pawns who are being used by people who tell us what they want to and pursue their own agendas, and that's not only true of our government. The whole international argument about whether this war should happen or not was never, ever about Iraqi citizens, at least on the level where policy is made.

Pat said it. But I will add that to fully believe anything in the news from any side is to be deceived. It will be years--if ever--before we have access to anything close to an objective truth about all this.

As others said, there is much misinformation and disinformation out there... I pray that this report was in error, but fear that there is some truth to it. This is going to be a VERY nasty war on all sides.

I am looking for new sources of information, and just learned of this Russian News Report website. I think it's worth looking at...

Riot Act for a more balanced point of view, pull you head out of your ass.

As far as I can see, you are nothing short of an anti-american crack pot, and I for one would be honored to tell you to Fuck Off.

You may want to read about the four marines killed when they stopped a private car at a check point, or about the private car that rammed into an american tank trying to destory it, or the men killed accepting an Iraq surrender, you may want to read a little history of Viet Nam and learn of the marines killed when a baby was exploded among them, or even the young viet cong girls whi infected themselves with balck rot, just to pass it on to marines.

As a former marine, I can assure you that if the orders are to stop all traffic, then I to would not think twice about killing women and children, perhaps you should be warning the people of Iraq that the US Marines are coming and War is War,
The US Marine Corps has learned the lessons of war in the blood of those brave marines who have gone before them. You may want to get on your knees and pray that if ever a marine tells you to stop, that you do so, for in the next moment death can come.

Proud to have served with the United States Marine Corps and glad to be an American, yes even when we are lied to and we have an idiot for a President, we are still so much better off then you or the people of Iraq could ever hope to be.

So keep your anti-american shit to yourself, I would love to tell you that I would welcome you back but deep in my heart, I must stick with Fuck Off you dipshit, but I do mean it in the kindest way possible.

(views expressed my me, in no way reflect upon Arlo, Arlonet, or the members of Arlonet, they are my own views and I stand behind them)

<center><FONT COLOR="#000080">--- Edited 1 times, lastly by Nathen on Mar 30, 2003 ---</FONT></center>

One other thing to keep in mind, we send kids to fight our wars. There are 18, 19, 20 year olds out there. They are scared shitless and as soldiers are not allowed to acknowledge their own feelings. They are thrown into this madness that no one can be prepared for. They are asked to handle situations that even as a full-fledged adult I would have no idea how to handle, and they have to do it with split-second decisions. They are going to make some horrible mistakes, that they will have to deal with the rest of their lives, which may only be hours or days. Can I forgive them their errors? Instantly. I can only pray for them, and pray my son is not sent.

Nathan,

As much as I respect that everyone has their own view of the worlds happenings, I think you may be being a bit harsh here. However, I'm sure you feel fully justified in your response. These are just my thoughts. It's just that you come across as such a peaceful guy the majority of the time that I was a bit taken back by your response here.

I agree with everything that Pat, Ceashel and Wyldflower stated. It is foolish to believe in everything you read or are told. None of us from any side are getting the whole story.

I'm just so sick of people arguing about it. This is a time where people need to band together to send a message of love and peace - not create more hostilities. Hate is ignorance.

Nathan, I think your a great person. I just don't agree with your response.

Ters, I am a very peace loving guy, I would have preferred that the war never started, I would willing give all of Iraq in exchange for even one life that has been lost over there, but the season of peace is behind us and now we are in the battle and those marines are my borthers, Riot Act, is only willing to say that he is from somewhere over in "old Europe", yet in his three posts he has posted only hate and disrepect for the men and women fighting, that just is not right, you see, I do care and I also repect those on both sides who have given their lives. My point is this, in war, every man can make mistakes and ever one who nears a post may be a killer, today in Kuwait, 15 men were injuried when they were ran over by a private truck, the driver was from Egypt. He was only stopped when he was shot, so where does one draw the line?
Had Riot Act posted anything other then anti american crap, I would have given him the benifit of doubt, read his first post and see if I did not do so.
I know there are those who will disagree with me and I still respect them, in fact it is a better world when we can disagree, but I just do not think that these attacks can go on without someone speaking out.
I am proud to say that right here in ArloNet
we have the Mother of a Marine and I am proud to call her friend, so if someone wants to post the facts and cover the issue from both sides then, Yes, I would welcome them, but please no one sided story of marines being evil.

Well, as a moderator, I guess I wish Nathen had been a bit more moderate, but Riot Act is courting controversy, and Nathen's responses are honest and kind of valuable in understanding things from the point of view of the serviceperson out there. I'm afraid we're not done arguing about this by a longshot or struggling with the issue of how to question an administration that a lot of us believe needs questioning and still support the servicemen and women who are risking their lives, not to mention those who've lost their lives.

you know...i was going to post to this thread...and then i decided not to....and then i realized it was riot act who started the other thread that made me want to post something..and i didnt then either..because i'm trying to not start a big discussion about this war...but maybe it's time we did!

riot act....i'm curious....why do you feel the need to point out the glaring 'mistakes' (for lack of a better word) of america in this war?

what is it you trying to accomplish? if you just want to piss people off, that's fine...but just realize if you keep this up...that is what you are going to do.

i dont speak for anyone but myself out here but i do believe that others will agree with what i say....

i dont support this war...but i do support the troops. i resent being called a traitor just because i dont agree with the idiot in charge.

we live in a republic that calls itself a democracy and we are currently being 'led' by a dictator.

but now that we are in this damn thing...the best we can do is pray for our troops and pray for a swift outcome..along with prayers for the people of iraq....

i dont think anyone wants to see anyone else die..but we are at war..it's relatively unavoidable....

war really *is* hell.

so if you want to start a war here...keep posting your thoughts. you are certainly welcome to your opionions....just realize with whom you are sharing those ideas....and accept what comes along with it.

Sherry you said it so very well, thank you, you expressed my thinking without the Marine Corps adjectives, I to hope that the report is wrong, but again with so many attacks upon our men and women, (I think I heard there were 14 taxi attacks today, similar to the one that killed four yesterday) I can well understand how it could have happened.
I woud like to thank everyone for their support or at least understanding as to why, I must make a stand, I think this is also one time that Todd and I would be standing on the same side, he to was outspoken regarding our servicemen and women.

May be peace be quick in coming and may the loss of life on both sides end.

Cook urges Blair: bring army home
Eben Black, Nicholas Rufford, Qatar and Jonathan Calvert, Basra
Robin Cook laid down a challenge to Tony Blair last night by condemning the war against Saddam Hussein as “bloody and unnecessary” and urging the prime minister to bring Britain’s forces home


US Marines turn fire on civilians at the bridge of death
Mark Franchetti, Nasiriya
The light was a strange yellowy grey and the wind was coming up, the beginnings of a sandstorm in which the silence felt almost eerie after a night of shooting so intense it hurt the eardrums

thus began the story as filed by an award wining journelist for the London Sunday Times.

I was unable to read the entire story, but in fact it did appear.

I regret the loss of any lives and I agree that we do need to know what is happening over there, but please don't make it all one sided.

(information from the Sunday Times, London)

I found this in the New York Times March 30,

(taken from War Turns Ugly)

Near Basra, as The Financial Times reported, "soldiers were not being welcomed as liberators but often confronted with hatred." In the increasingly messy fights around Nasiriya, Marine units, which earlier were ambushed while responding to what appeared to be a large-scale surrender, had by the end of the week destroyed more than 200 homes.

Visions of cheering throngs welcoming them as liberators have vanished in the wake of a bloody engagement whose full casualties are still unknown. Snippets of news from Nasiriya give us a picture of chaotic guerrilla warfare, replete with hit-and-run ambushes, dead civilians, friendly fire casualties from firefights begun in the dead of night and a puzzling number of marines who are still unaccounted for. And long experience tells us that this sort of combat brings with it a "downstream" payback of animosity and revenge.

Other reports corroborate the direction that the war, as well as its aftermath, promises to take: Iraqi militiamen, in civilian clothes, firing weapons and disappearing inside the anonymity of the local populace. So-called civilians riding in buses to move toward contact. Enemy combatants mixing among women and children. Children firing weapons. Families threatened with death if a soldier does not fight. A wounded American soldier commenting, "If they're dressed as civilians, you don't know who is the enemy anymore."

Indeed these things may have happened, but in fairness, we must understand not only what happened but why.

<center><FONT COLOR="#000080">--- Edited 2 times, lastly by Nathen on Mar 31, 2003 ---</FONT></center>

Please excuse my skewed view of what is happening:
I try to look at a situation like this through the eyes of each party.

The troops are scared. They have people running at them, some to flee some to fight. It is impossible to tell who is who. If I thought I might die because one of the people running toward me was going to kill me, I would be very likely to err on the side of my safety. It is human instinct to survive.

Looking at this through the eyes of the local population, All that they know is that there are foreign troops marching, bombing and shooting up their homes. If I was one of them, I think I would be doing my best to survive, either by running or by fighting back. Again it is human instinct to survive.

As you put yourself in the other persons shoes it can give a better understanding of why they act the way they do. When I try to look through the eyes of the leaders initiating this action, I see nothing, I get no sense of a valid motive at all.

You will not change the human will to survive but you can change leaders.
HomerJ

Hail Homer.

The way I look at it & as cold as this sounds, I just call it what it is. "Catlateral Damage". "Friendly Fire". & shoot low in case they're crawling!!!


*When you grow up in the sticks, you get a rough & tough look at the real world. It can be very cruel at times. But then again your taking to a man that cry's watching "The Yearling" What can I say? Gregory Peck is a tremendous Actor! <img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/privateeyes.gif" width=15 height=15>