Having reviewed the facts in this case, I must admit that I to would have fired on the people at the bridge, think for a moment, what it must be like to be overthere, uncertain of why, uncertain of who your friends are, it is dark and there are broken down and damgaed cars and trucks blocking your view, you know that out there in the darkness, death awaits you, the only thing you can be sure of is this, you have been told to hold the bridge, so yes if something moves you fire your weapon, and then hearing the gunshot your buddies will do the same, and often only after the ammo is gone or your platoon leaders orders the men to stop firing, does it end, only in the morning do you see who or what was hit, and then you pray that it was not you that fired that terribly round, War is Hell, and it will get worse as the battle goes into the city.

It is not just the few that died that suffer, I am certain that this battle turned some boys into old men over night, may God have mercy on them and on those that died.

@ Nathen:

All I did was posting the word to word transcription of an article in "Sunday Times", not more, not less.

O.K., you referred to my other posts so I will try to explain a little about my point of view:

First I want to say, when I say "America" in this statements, I mean the American leaders, not you people and not the soldiers fighting over there (most of them would rather wish to be at home playing games with their kiddies).

And: I'm not American, so you can't expect anything from me comparable to the kind of "patriotism" that is practised in your country. Due to the German history this kind of "our side is always right, the other side is always wrong" view is an unknown thing for me.

Let me just sum up a few points of my opinion:

Iraq did NOT threat or attack America.

Iraq is NOT involved into 9/11.

Iraq does NOT have WMD.

Iraq WAS on the way to disarm according UN resolution 1441.

The UN did NOT justify military action.

Nobody in Iraq or somewhere else asked America to come and "free" the people there.

O.K., so far my opinion to these points. What follows out of that for me is:

America has NO RIGHT to attack Iraq, this is a unjustified, agressive act.

And: Every Iraqi has the right to be where he wants to be, to dress how he wants to in his own homeland and to defend his country with all means he's able to. (If an agressor would attack America, you would do the same).

When I hear: "oh, these bad Iraqis hide themselves in schools and hospitals, they "disguise" themselves as civilians, they get the US soldiers trapped with tricks.." I just have to say: "What gives America the fucking right to be over there and claim what has to be ??"

In this game America has thrown the first stone, and it was the hell of a big one. Over 6.000 "high precision" bombs were fired onto a country which can only defend itself with ground troops with Kalachnikovs in their hands. Who can ever blame those people to use EVERY possibility to defend their country and their own culture ?

And when I hear: "The Iraqis are sick people and we are their chemotherapy" I have to ask: "And who the hell called a doctor ??"

And please remember, when I say America I mean the American leaders !

In my eyes, the only way to support your troops (and they sure deserve it) would be to bring them back home as soon as possible.

And when you read the posts here, do you hear "our side is always right, the other side is always wrong"?
I'd say that kind of patriatism is an unknown thing for us too.

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Riot Act, thank you for your reply, I agree with many points you made regarding America having no just cause to be in Iraq at this time, I disagree that the people of Iraq at free to act as they may desire, however having said that, I would welcome you to always look at both sides and then feel free to post, but do look at both sides.

I have friends who are German, one lady even manned anti-aircraft guns trying to shoot down american planes over Berlin, My best friend is from canada, his father a POW was interred in Canada and never returned to Germany. I well inderstand the difficulty that this war has caused so many people and I regret that it has happened, Someday I hope we can all be as one, but until that day comes, please share with us more then just the news.
Here isn America, we like to start out with,
Hello, my name is Nathen and I am from tennessee, I a carve walking sticks and listen to Arlo, but right now I would like to say something regaring .........

of course if your Name is Larry you may want to change the wording a little

seems to me that expecting the iraqi people to be able to ASK for help in becoming a free and liberated people is like expecting the jews in concentration camps in nazi germany to be able to ask for help.

i'm not saying this war wasn't avoidable....but saddam certainly wasnt living up to the things he agreed to....and if you think he is a 'fair' man and living under his rule is a good thing....then there probably isnt a reason to keep talking about this!

nathen...who would have thought..you me and todd on the same side of an issue? LOL

Nathen, I thank you as well, I guess we both had to calm down a little. I agree with you in that point and admit I've posted in moments my temper was rising too much. By the way, my name's Martin from Nuremberg.

Please understand, I'm far far away from being anti-american, I've been raised with the music of Arlo and Woody, Buffy Sainte Marie, Bob Dylan, Tom Paxton, Phil Ochs, Pete Seeger and many, many others.
I'm singing and picking their songs since 30 years now, sometimes on stage, writing my own stuff somewhen, loving my two Martins and my Santa Cruz...

One of my best American friends is the singer and guitarist Diane Ponzio from NY and I mail a lot with her.

So, you might see, I'm share a lot of friendship to you people over there.

But all of that spirit and all of that songs train one's sense for justice and humanity. And in my eyes justice and humanity is hurt so bad by that bunch of criminals which claim to be your "elected" administration.

And I really do ask, and I ask it right now and here:

Where are you all, you guys who were the voice of America back in the Vietnam days ??
Who writes and sings a new "Presidential Rag" like Arlo did in Watergate times ??
Who'll spread another "Born on the 4th of July" or "Jimmy Newman" to show the perversion of war ?? Who will set a new "Masters of War" into the world ??

Sorry, but it is quite calm around, and I do not understand it. The world should cry and scream about what happenes. Not only this war alone, this is just the beginning, I fear what comes then. Syria and Iran have been threatened by Rumsfeld right today. I fear there's a big plan, and all citizens of this world will be the victims including the Americans.

So, you see, I'm Martin, developing air navigation systems, picking guitar, listening to Arlo and friends and fear about our world.

Have a nice day.

Martin, welcome to ArloNet, as both the unoffical welcoming person and asshole in residence, may I recommend you also read Andy rooney's comments also here in Topical Topics.

Like many people in America, I support our troops that have been sent into harms way, but I don't support the assholes that sent them there.I feel there was more to do on the dimplomatic front before committing to war.But small minds seek only the solutions that they themselves can grasp. George W. Bush is no diplomat, and is a shallow idiot by any measure.
Bad people do bad things in war, and good people do bad things in war.The "fog" of war, fear and circumstances will cause bad things to happen.A sad fact of war to be sure.

Thank you Nathen I read those comments and agree with the most of them... only the last sentence made me think about what mess will be coming up when America really wins that war... will there be somebody to handle all the different interests of that people living which are forced to live in that artificial country called Iraq... ??? I wonder...

Hello, Martin, and welcome to ArloNet! I think we can all find some common ground if we try.
Nathen, thanks for mentioning me in your post--I appreciate your friendship as well.
I have 2 sons in Service right now, an Airman in the AirForce Reserves and a young Marine, who is thinking of volunteering to go overseas with his unit, instead of finishing his Security Forces training in Virginia. I am scared to death for him.

I listened to various people on "Meet the Press" this week-end, and I am more confused than ever. I agree with some of the things Riot Act said in his later posts--we are the aggressor nation in this and it just goes against everything I have always thought America stood for. Generals are saying this is not the war we trained for.

Nathen, I keep thinking back to your post about the American Revolution in everything that is happening in Iraq. Did we just expect these people to roll over and give us their homeland, bad as it may be for them?

Thank you all for being here and listening and sharing.
Please keep the prayers and Blundervibes going for ALL our service men and women.

Riot Act, check out the "Do Not Adjust Your Set" thread. That pretty well sums up what many--not all, but many--of us here think and feel.

Riot Act, many, although not quite everyone, here agree with your points about our being in this war. Questioning and even protesting the war and at the same time being supportive of the troops who, after all, are just trying to do what they believe and have been told is right to protect us is actually very difficult and we've yet to get it right. We're working on it. Anyway, I'm very happy that what started out as a heated discussion has become one of understanding and mutual respect. Too bad the it can't work like that when governments get involved.

Remember the old saw about the three biggest lies? Well, I have modified it to the four biggest lies, and tailored it to the Bush war. Here they are, in no particular order:

1. THIS WAR IS PAYBACK FOR 9/11/01.

2. TOPPLING THE IRAQI REGIME WILL FREE THE IRAQI PEOPLE.

3. BEING AGAINST THE WAR IS UNPATRIOTIC.

4. "I'M FROM AMERICA, AND I'M HERE TO LIBERATE YOUR COUNTRY."

Hi all,
and welcome MArtin (i m from Germany as well by the way, south of Stuttgart)
Just wanted to say that I live in Barcelona at the moment(for 2 years)and that there are LOT S of demonstrations here at the moment (nearly every day) it s just great!! On Saturday we had a concert for peace for example. And nearly 2 million people took part in the first demonstration in february , here the people really "scream " (partly because they don t want to be "ruled" by Aznar any more....

Thank you fan !
I can imagine that in a so called "pro-war" country like England or Spain a lot more people go to protest rallys and show their opinion even sometimes in a more loud and "violent" way, 'cause it is turned also against their own government.

True that in Germany there are Peace rallies all the time, most of them in Berlin and Dresden, but if they approach the German government building and yell: "Stop this war !" Gerhard Schröder's looking out of the window yellin' back: "I would if I could !".

I admit I'm jokin', but the fact is true I think: You have much more resistance in "pro-war" countries from the people than in others.