As a lapsed Catholic I'm somewhat surprised at the emotion I feel during the Pope's final journey. If a miracle is not to be, then I pray for peaceful passage.

No matter what your religious beliefs, the Pope is an example to all of us, for the way he has lived his life and the way he appears to be approaching his death.

the pope has passed... another man done gone. He was a good person, and will be missed.

but i still gotta wonder, will the next pope be GeorgeRingo?

goodnight JohnPaul.

....i am feeling his loss, too.....

...He certainly lived the life of " There are no throwaway people".....he went looking for the marginal of our societies and then went to visit them with humility.....

...heard a story on the news yesterday.... a
Rabbi who was teaching about the holocaust to the Vatican seminarians had an audience with Pope John.....he was told to tell him he was a Rabbi.....and as the Pope approached, he introduced himself.....the Pope blessed him in the name of God, they spoke briefly.......the Rabbi was amazed that the Pope never mentioned the name of Jesus in his blessing nor crossed himself........he was, the Rabbi said, on his own territory, yet respected the Rabbi's beliefs enough to find a middle ground of blessing.....

....we have all lost and gained....

I'm not Catholic so not too familiar with Popes. I'm sure sorry to hear about him & may God be with his family at this time...

Being born Catholic, and having a Mom that insisted going to Church every Sun was a great idea. At the time. We would go up to the balcony and wait for mass to begin. Then we'd sneak out, go and sit on the library steps and smoke ciggareets. It was all good.

But with all the molestation from priest of late, (decades if not century's) I find Catholosisim just another anology of why religion is bad.

The Pope (may the creater bless his soul) wasn't in that category of Clergy. Obviously or he wouldn't considered a 'real' saint.

I also love how he put down Bush for going to war. For that alone I will miss the mans presence...

Fitzy it's so nice to see your post....<img src="http://www.arlo.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif" width=15 height=15>

All I can say is that I hope to heck that Cardinal Ratzinger, the guy who was sort of like the MC of the Pope's funeral and is the head of the College of Cardinals, does not become the next Pope. Back in 2000 the guy came out with his "DOMINUS IESUS" edict that more or less says that even though other religions and non-Catholic Christian churches are okay, the only "true" way to salvation from sin and to the Yippie-Kie-Oh, Great Reward in the sky is through the one, the only Catholic Church! Ta-dah! And that it's a Catholic's job to turn folks of other faiths to Catholicism. Sort of sets things back a few centuries, don't it? Let's hope it doesn't go as far as bringing back what a lot of my fellow Neo-Pagans call "The Burning Times".

Don't know if it was because of his trust in Ratzinger or because of his failing health, but the late Pope JP II approved the edict. I don't think ill of the late Pope, but stuff like the above, the church coming out against the use of condoms even to curb the spread of aids (contributing to the deaths of millions in many third world Catholic countries), and the abhorrent coverup of child molestation by priests makes me wonder how it all got past him.

I couldn't bring myself to watch the funeral. I was more thinking of all the funerals that have been held because that pope thought condoms were evil and I was thinking of the ruined lives because he thought less of women and children than of tradition. Or something. I'm sorry, but there it is. This is not goodness and light. It's damn sure not the stuff of sainthood.

Thats exactly how I feel Shel........
That Church sure has alot to answer for!!!
The Patriarchs living in opulance while people starve and die of Aides.
And I know I won't burn in hell for saying it. I can't stand the way religions use fear to keep people in line. That's my 32 cents worth for today.

He was just a man in a position to have great achievements and failings. He stood strong in Poland, a traditional battleground for his organization against the Godless commies. He failed in Latin Ameica where he may have made a difference. I have made no bones about not believing any of his or others superstitions. This particular church made some pacts with the devil himself in the fight against bolshevism in the last century (they were not alone in that). It wasn't the first time of questionable alliances and practices in that regard. Their doctrine of the great mystery and following them as the only way builds walls and barriers. When you shake a mans hand and profess friendship you shouldn't turn around and condemn his soul to torment as a matter of policy!

I am sure he was a nice and interesting man and he lived a full life!

well there's probably very little that anyone has said here that i would disagree with......from Cardinal Ratzinger's seemingly punitive edict to the great wealth of the Vatican to many of the very conservative positions that Pope JohnII held...to the place of any so-called organized religion in our world as it really is....

...as born into the Catholic church, in the rebellions that i engaged in during my adolescence i remember particularly when his birth control encylical came out....appalling!!...and my conversation with gentle and liberal Jesuit.....who gentally and liberally reminded me that the United States was not the only country on the Vatican's mind.....that there were many fears amongst theologians that promoting birth control would allow those Latin dictators alot more latitude in the forced sterilizations and genocide that was already happening....and that following my own conscience within our culture was most likely the best move for me (creaking, my mind opened a millimeter or two:)....

....more than that though, i can't forget that Pope John II, as human as he was and as fallible as many of his decisions may have been, taught about compassion and true ecumenism (far and above only "tolerance") as much or more than so many world leaders....i will never forget the images of his meeting with his would be assassin...his embrace....their reconciliation.....would only i could be half that forgiving.....he dropped to his knees and kissed the ground in Haiti.....would only George Bush do that......and nearly 100 countries in this world....

for these acts alone i wept at his passing......and in his honor i embrace those who didn't....

I thought that Pope John Paul II was a great pope & a great man. Prior to his papacy, the image of the pope was that of a sickly old man who never left Rome, mumbling a few pronouncements on this & that. John Paul II was energetic & funny & athletic, & visited several countries.

So some of you, as I, disagree with some things he did. Can any of you quantify the number of people who died from AIDS as a direct result of his saying that condoms are evil? Do you really think that the pope's word carries that much weight in today's world? Now if Eminem or LeBron James had said condoms were evil, that might be a different story...

He felt that condom use would encourage the type of behavior that spreads AIDS, rather than prevent AIDS. Is he not entitled to his opinion?

What about those of you who ever smoked marijuana or used harder drugs? What about the funerals that YOU caused when your money went to support drug kingpins who would gun down anybody who would stand in their way? Should I judge you just as harshly?

Read Pope John Paul II's 1994 book, Crossing the Threshhold of Hope, in particular the chapter titled "The Defense of Every Life." You'll find a well-thought-out essay that calls for "responsible parenthood" & decries men who would participate in a conception & then abandon the woman. A leader who thinks thru every aspect of an issue (unlike our current Pres.) is a good leader, even if you don't agree with the end result.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by P. Pittsburgh Joe:


Can any of you quantify the number of people who died from AIDS as a direct result of his saying that condoms are evil? Do you really think that the pope's word carries that much weight in today's world?
He felt that condom use would encourage the type of behavior that spreads AIDS, rather than prevent AIDS. Is he not entitled to his opinion?

Read Pope John Paul II's 1994 book, Crossing the Threshhold of Hope, in particular the chapter titled "The Defense of Every Life." You'll find a well-thought-out essay that calls for "responsible parenthood" & decries men who would participate in a conception & then abandon the woman. A leader who thinks thru every aspect of an issue (unlike our current Pres.) is a good leader, even if you don't agree with the end result.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one can quantify how many contracted AIDS and died as a direct result of the Pope's aversion to latex, but yes, he probably did have that much influence. Look at the number of people who showed up in Rome last week. The church does not support "artificial" means of contraception. Condoms fall into that catagory, ergo, never mind the fact that they may prevent the spread of STD's (which is what they're intended to do, rather than a contraceptive in the first place!). If you want numbers, to quote an article that was in a local paper this weekend, "...AIDS is killing millions each year. In Kenya alone, 400 people die each day from it." Four days of that surpasses the number of Americans killed in Iraq to date. AIDS is out of control in Africa, as well as, the profoundly Catholic, South America.

Comparing to music (or rap) stars, well, if I recall correctly, the Who and AC/DC cancelled their tours when some fans were trampled to death at one of their respective concerts. About the same time, the same thing happened with the Pope on one of his "tours" (several times), but he kept right on with the scheduled appearances. Even back when it happened I recall feeling the irony in rock groups canceling their tours while the Pope did not.

Again, citing a weekend article, as lately as a year ago he praised Rev. Marcial Degollado who had been the object of many pedophilia-related lawsuits and complaints.

And then there's Cardinal Bernard Law. Although he resigned his post as the Bishop of Boston for covering up for pedophile priests and, even worse, moving them around rather than removing them, essentially giving them new, unsuspecting places to shop for their perversions, he still remains a cardinal and was sent to Rome. In fact, he'll be casting his vote for the next Pope as a member of the College of Cardinals. Just today it was reported that he held a mass over the weekend in honor of Pope JP II in Rome that was protested by many, including some of those abused by the priests that he and the Church protected and hid. It was also reported that many in the Vatican look at it as being blown out of proportion by Americans and even go so far as to suggest that it was another American attempt to discredit the Church.

Did he do good? You bet! His stand against war and, as a consequence, Bush was right on. He called for an equality and justice of economics and how globalization wasn't gonna do squat without it. Sadly, not too many world nor economic leaders listened to that nor to his cry for a respect for nature. (Have you noticed that a lot of this points nasty fingers at Dubya Bush?) And, despite the condom/AIDS issue, he did come out for health care to the extent of saying that many people die each day, "...sometimes in the midst of general indifference of those who could or should offer them support." (Did ya hear that, greedy corporate drug companies? Nah! I didn't think so!)

I think what gets a lot of us wired is this talk of sainthood. If you're going to elevate somebody to that stature, make sure there's nothing that's gonna turn around and bite you on the ass. Well I think there's enough here to take a bit of a chunk. I think that we, as a species, have a tendancy of deifying or at least softening our views of the recently deceased. Hell, I don't recall too many harsh words for Nixon when he passed, do you? But like PS said, Pope JP II was just another human like the rest of us. He did good and not so good. And, like the rest of us, he was no saint.

<center><FONT COLOR="#000080">--- Edited 1 times, lastly by Captain Zap on Apr 12, 2005 ---</FONT></center>

I doubt that any pronouncement by the Pope ever carried much sway with the dictators and thugs that orchestrated genocide in central America or anywhere else. Pronouncements opposed to birth control and condoms, I believe to be highly ineffective in changing peoples attitudes toward sex, their desires for sex and their pursuit of sex. It just made artificial moral barriers for groups who were of the opinion that education and the availability of condoms may have decreased the risk or probability that some victims would contract AIDS given the means to avoid it. (Besides, I believe his pronouncements were directed at a rebellious American Church who wished to pursue their own sexual revolution not those promiscuous Black devils of the sub continent who where to stupid to handle responsible sexual pleasure without the socially difficult consequences). As far as where money went that I may have spent on vices, well i can't seem to segregate illegal from legal vices. I spend money all the time that goes to fund a war machine in Iraq. I don't like it! I can't control it! I find the sex sacndals outrageous and I am not impresssed with the church response but I let JP2 slide on that one. I will say it is my opinion that the indoctrination process of this church and churches in general that is forced on children is a form of child abuse in the name of moral development (imagine that) and that ultimately sexual abuse is just an extreme variation on that root abuse that parents as well as priests contribute (I think abusing priests were probably abused themselves and this may have contributed to their behavior).

I still think he was probably a nice man with good intentions!

<center><FONT COLOR="#000080">--- Edited 2 times, lastly by PSBeaty on Apr 12, 2005 ---</FONT></center>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Captain Zap:

I think what gets a lot of us wired is this talk of sainthood. If you're going to elevate somebody to that stature, make sure there's nothing that's gonna turn around and bite you on the ass. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

St. Paul was a murderer before he began preaching. The Catholic Church has no requirement that a saint be completely without flaw.

Here's me moving onto another subject. Getting a little too ummmm..... alt for me. Bye, bye!