Leo, I think you stuck your finger in the fan!

Are you sure it was his finger, psb?

I am pretty openly hostile to aspects of society (I won't say our society for as we try to survive as a species we must consider ourselves one society) that define or confine a person based on gender or race or caste. It often seems to me that there is a significant percentage of individuals within the seemingly oppressed group that wish to reject change. I mean things like the "Save The Family" movement that promotes traditional roles (and therefore gender definitions) is far more dangerous to lasting changes in gender definitons than the occasional brain fart like Leo experienced. I am not saying families are bad! I am saying families don't have to be based on the traditional roles of the genders involved to be effective in instilling "family values". It is the 50% of American women and 75% of Muslim women who accept and promote the idea that women should define themselves as domestic servants and the "primary parent" that is the greatest road block to change. I think this applies to race and (somewhat) to caste as well (in their own ways). I think to some extent that Bill Cosby is right when he says much of the Afro American community promotes and maintains racism by maintaining certain aspects of ethnic segregation. There is a Rev. Wright who might qualify as an appropriate example. So, when Leo sticks bits of his person in the fan (I won't say which bit but Shel's point is well taken), it is good to point it out and say something like "I hope you learned from that experience" but we all must realize the "social pressure" that might have persuaded Leo's impulsive act of sticking his particular bit (?) through that cage and into those spinning blades.

Well, as someone who has travelled extensively in Muslim countries, and has been living for the past 10 years in a secular country that is 98% Muslim, I'd love to see your data for that "fact." Don't be so quick to categorize people into neat little packages - especially based on media reports. As a journalist, I see a completely different picture from the outside.

Sorry, the nearly 50% American Women and nearly 99% of Muslim women I personally know feel this way (per there appearence and actions). The American women with this outlook are nearly all either Catholic or from a Southern Protestant sect (Southern Baptist or Charismatic) or an isolationist sect (Mormon, Mennonite or Amish). I can say that my personal knowledge of Hindu women would lead me to place them closer to the Muslim than the American women in "gender roles". My interaction with Islam is rather limited and primarily work related (most being from Pakistan) and my assessment is primarily through wives and daughters. On the occasions I have met both Muslim and Hindu women the food they were serving me was very good! I would say the Islamic and Hindu women I know would probably fall into more of a secular open branch of these religions. In the past I knew a number of Iranians (obviously very long ago) when I was in college. THey occupied about 25% of the dorm I lived in. There were essentially no women (99.5% male) and the few Iranian women I did know were obvioulsy from very wealthy families (and they were very westernized). The women you never see belong to some of the fundamentalist sects of Judaism in the area (there is a fairly large Jewish population in the area).

I can not speak beyond my experience.

Interesting. I don't know of any Muslim women who would view their role in any society as that of a domestic servant. Primary care giver, most probably, but I suspect that attitude holds true for most cultures, although I have not seen a study on it. Of course, being a woman gives me an edge when speaking to Muslim women in private, where they will open up about how they view themselves in the family structure.

it was just a random thought which happened to get posted. Though you don't deny it do you? I want to move to Russia; 2 songs about them girls can't be all wrong.

I concede that they have certainly never spoken to me about anything personal (well except American women. They are pretty vocal and usually they fall clearly on one side or the other)! I know it is a delicate issue (Leo I have my finger poised before the blades) but exactly how do you define primary care giver? What would be say the duties of a primary care giver? How often do they opt out of the role of primary care giver? What is a secondary care giver? Just curious?

From my observations, which are constant, many women, whom I observe, whether close to me, such as friends and family, or in general in society or media, still make a rod for their own back, because they haven't gotten over their "being nice" training. There is still a "backlash" for not conforming. In fact things seem to be sliding backwards at times.

I have a book in my head, a reserch non fiction book. I will question people, female and male and record my findings along with the response from individuals. I have the title, but not the time yet. Maybe in a few years when I retire.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, Do you think Hils and Barrack could work together for the cause if one was P and the other VP? I'm not so sure.
Who would make a good VP?

I am not really itching for a fight here but I do believe there is an aspect of Woman is the Nigger of the World (as John Lennon put it) that is still a reality. I also believe the roles one wishes to assume in both their relationships and with regard to the world should be their choice. However, I feel that many people enter the world with no choice at all and that women, in particular, fall into this category.

2 things from the late 70's, which I hold close; from the whole born again stuff I did then: females should inspire men, not tell them what to do. The second is that we should never listen to a bad report. Both came from a basic youth conflict (maybe) and yet the whole OJ trial, and such, should never have been on TV; for it should have always and only been up to a jury.
But I will wait a long time for Females to inspire Man rather than just tell them what to do.
That is where I am coming from.

Maybe you SHOULD go to Russia Leo. Apparently the word for wife, in Russian, means "behind the man".
I think I'd better get to work on that book.

Shouldn't Ladies inspire Men, rather then tell them what they should do or shouldn't do? Or don't you even know the difference?

How women should be, is to come from the other than right side of Man's Mind, the subliminal side, like where pool is played at its best, without the ego part. Instead of being told what to do, like you are telling me where to go now.

But I guess you like all the court cases on TV, which should only be decided among a jury of peers, instead of a mass media.

Well, that certainly explains a lot. I grew up where that stuff is all around, and so was able to work through its fallacies as a child. (They HATED me in sunday school--too many questions they couldn't answer.) I'm sorry for anyone whose medieval world view denies them the joy of knowing another being as equal and partner. That is true love.

I sort of think some women do inspire men, without all the servitude stuff. And in some cases men inspire women.

Have you inspired anyone lately?